EMJB's Terrestrial Channels brainstorm

[Sicilian]

Are they monitoring those types of thread/guide to ensure they are up to date?
EMJB

Yes, but theres no plans to re-create the video guides just for a simple menu change. Unfortunately life takes over and they take too much time to create. You're more than welcome to create a video guide and I'll add to the openvix site .

[EMJB]

You are ignoring comment about YouTube.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this.

Our opinions on functionality and purpose of ABM DVB-T frequency finder differs

if we differ on the functionality, please advise. In terms of purpose, if you mean the designers intention, I express no comment. If you mean uses to which it can usefully be put (which may go beyond the original designers aim), yes we do differ in emphasis.

I anticipate there will be a post of why there isn't only one way of doing things.

Of course there are often multiple ways of doing things, but in general each person will only use one way. To my mind one role of a user guide is point out the pros and cons of each way so a new user can find the right one for him. I am trying to gather that information.


EMJB

[EMJB]

Yes, but theres no plans to re-create the video guides just for a simple menu change. Unfortunately life takes over and they take too much time to create. You're more than welcome to create a video guide and I'll add to the openvix site .

As I think I pointed out, it is not just a simple menu change , its an omission of a major new feature that in my view transforms the useability of ABM.

The question of maintaining user etc information can be, in my view, a major problem. I have the simple view that clever software implementation of anything with significant user interaction is only as useful as the user documentation allows (I include on-line help etc in the term "documentation" here). Therefore in the ideal world no software change should ever be promulgated without updating the documentation. I appreciate that few programmers like doing documentation, but asking for it to be reviewed does not seem unreasonable. Taking the "simple menu change" as an example, a post added to the relevant thread would be a major step forward. Even a post mentioning the DVB-T frequency finder and cross-referencing Abu Baniaz's thread would help.

My other gripe is that it is difficult to determine what material on this site can be trusted as being correct, up to date, and is often not worded to help newbies find it. For example "ABM (Terrestrail ): Add HD channels/regions." (https://www.world-of-satellite.com/showthread.php?59815) appears under "support discussions" rather than "Image Guides", and the title does little to attract the new user. If the "Image Guides" section only contained maintained information, and all maintained information was included there, the situation would be easier to manage and easier for the user to find.

Is there any intention to revive the OpenVix manual?

With regards to your suggestion that I update the video, I have stated elsewhere that I am not a fan of that method providing user information in these circumstances. It is difficult to address alternatives, and difficult to do minor amendments such as menu name changes

EMJB

[Sicilian]

Openvix is community based software, anyone is welcome to provide new guides or update existing guides. Feel free to do so


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[EMJB]

I have been investigating the updating of ABM configuration files, and would like confirmation or otherwise of the following conclusions:

(1) Only the configuration file(s) for Provider(s) enabled on the Providers page are updated when "Update config files" is selected.

(2) If the results of DVB-T frequency finder have been enabled when selecting "Update config files", you get an error message, and nothing is updated for this provider.

(3) The parts of the DVB-T frequency finder based configuration relating to sections etc are copied from the Freeview (UK) configuration file when DVB-T frequency finder is run, so updating the config files after enabling the Freeview (UK) provider should precede running DVB-T frequency finder.

(4) Apart from what I would call expert activities (e.g. copying data from terrestrial_uk_freeview.xml to frequency_finder.xml), re-running DVB-T frequency finder is the only way of updating the section etc information.

in order to make sure I get the user instructions right.

TIA,

EMJB

[Huevos]

1) Yes. This is under review. My personal opinion is to only update active providers. Others may think differently.
2) No, you get an advisory message, not an error message. Of course if you create a file yourself it is not going to exist on the repo. Same for all self created files that are not on the repo. This is under review.
3) No. Right now this is hardcoded. This is under review.
4) Is that a question or a statement? I take it is a statement as there is no question mark. Either way it is not correct. Currently the sections are hard coded. It is under review whether to bother with the sections at all. But since the sections haven't changed in a long time, if ever, it is not causing any difficulty at this time.

[EMJB]

@ Huevos Thanks for your helpful reply

2) no, you get an advisory message, not an error message. Of course if you create a file yourself it is not going to exist on the repo. Same for all self created files that are not on the repo. This is under review.

This is the message I got:
Config update failure.jpg
which includes the word "Error" so please do not be surprised if I use that term. Again you are looking at it from the expert point of view, whereas I am looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who lacks any such knowledge.

3) no. Right now this is hardcoded. This is under review.
4) is that a question or a statement. I take it is a statement is there is no question mark. Either way it is not correct. Currently the sections are hard coded. It is under review whether to bother with the sections at all. But since the sections haven't changed in a long time, if ever, it is not causing any difficulty.

By "section information" I was referring to entries such as:

	<sections>
		<section number="1">Entertainment</section>
		<section number="100">High Definition</section>
		<section number="201">Children</section>
		<section number="230">News</section>
		<section number="260">BBC Interactive</section>
		<section number="670">Adult</section>
	</sections>

in terrestrial_finder.xml and terrestrial_uk_freeview.xml., rather than to just the names of the sections. There seem to be errors in that information (e.g. Adults are 170-199 on my TV and https://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freeviewchannels.html). Is this a reflection of this data in the config file being ignored and replaced by a hard-coded version, or an indication that no-one is using the section-related facilities?

If the above data is ignored and replaced by a hard-coded version, does the same applies to the swapchannels part of the file?

Your references to "under review" sound as if this area is likely to be significantly modified, and hence any user guide to this area rendered useless. What timescale are you expecting to complete the review?


EMJB

[Huevos]

"Under review" means it is known about and subject to debate, and modification if it is deemed appropriate.

"Error 404 Not Found" is what a URL returns if the resource is not available.

If you are not happy with the sections or swaps that are currently hardcoded in the file you are welcome to send a pull request. The hardcoded data is in-sync with the providers file. If you feel the providers file is wrong submit a pull request.

Alternative possibilities are either remove the sections/swaps altogether or import them from the UK provider.

BTW, I wrote this code to make people's lives easier. If it doesn't make your life easier please don't use it.

[EMJB]

@ Huevos

Yet again you are interpreting my attempts to understand what things like "Update config files" do as criticism. I have tried studiously to avoid criticising the design - that is always a compromise between the programmers' time and the ideal, or the ideal may be impractical (e.g. getting the section data from the broadcast stream rather than relying on the LCN numbering system), and as you are unpaid that compromise is entirely your perogative. However failure to achieve perfection often leads to a need help the inexperienced get the best out of the design.

My aim in this case has been to get enough information to advise the user when to use this feature. Perhaps naively, I had assumed that what I called the "section data" in the configuration files was used to form the section bouquets, and on that basis I was about to recommend that the user update the config files every time the Freeview services are re-organised on the basis that it is easy to do and will occasionally improve the section bouquets. However I now understand that the section creation rules are hard-coded, in which case the updating the config files seems only relevant if the previous transmitter data has proved to be deficient in some way, and that a new version of ABM is required to correct any shortfalls. Perhaps the advice should be to update ABM itself before doing an ABM rescan.

I had appreciated that ""Error 404 Not Found" is what a URL returns if the resource is not available, and that is something of use to a developer. However a non-expert user is not going to make your distinction between an error report and information that an error has occurred, and think something is wrong.


EMJB

[birdman]

"Error 404 Not Found" is what a URL returns if the resource is not available.

And all 4xx codes are errors.
If not finding it is a valid possibility then you need to test for that case and change the report to remove the word "Error".

[abu baniaz]

The plan is not to attempt to update that provider.

[Huevos]

And all 4xx codes are errors.
If not finding it is a valid possibility then you need to test for that case and change the report to remove the word "Error".

No, actually I deliberately coded it to send any error message to the screen.

And also like Abu says this provider is going to be marked for skipping.

But there are only so many hours in the day and right now they are full up with more important things.

[EMJB]

In my opinion there were two ways in which a User Guide could have resolved this issue,

(1) By trying to stop it happening with a statement along the lines of "Ensure the provider generated by DVB-T frequency finder is not enabled before updating the config files - failure do so will lead to a message saying ……." in the bit relating to updating of config files.

and/or

(2) By including a section which relates error/problem/not working as expected/etc messages to the action (or inaction) required of the user.

However skipping that provider is a better solution unless the other reviews decide to use the section etc info from the config files rather than the hard-coded version!


EMJB

[Huevos]

(1) By trying to stop it happening with a statement along the lines of "Ensure the provider generated by DVB-T frequency finder is not enabled before updating the config files - failure do so will lead to a message saying ……." in the bit relating to updating of config files.

That is just not going to happen.

(2) By including a section which relates error/problem/not working as expected/etc messages to the action (or inaction) required of the user.

However skipping that provider is a better solution unless the other reviews decide to use the section etc info from the config files rather than the hard-coded version!

Do users create a file on their own box, based on their own location and then think that file is magically going to become available from a remote source?

[EMJB]

That is just not going to happen.

Bearing in mind that the bit you quoted is preceded by "In my opinion there were two ways in which a User Guide could have resolved this issue", I do not understand your response. I was suggesting some thing for inclusion in the user guide - did you think I was suggesting something in the code, or perhaps that you have a veto over the contents of the user guide, or that I am going to get so frustrated with these misunderstandings that I will abandon the whole thing?

Do users create a file on their own box, based on their own location and then think that file is magically going to become available from a remote source?

Again I fear you are looking at it from a programmer's point of viewpoint, and with the very specific knowledge that parts of the provider file are not used. In particular

(1) Update a file is NOT NECESSARILY mean the same thing to me as download a the complete file - it merely implies that at least parts are changed to match the latest version. For example, updating OpenVix via the menu system seems to replace the bits that have changed, not the complete image.

(2) If he thinks about it he will realise some parts are specific to his location, but how does he know all of it is specific to his location? In fact anyone with limited expertise looking at frequency_finder.xml will see elements that are not location specific, and it is only the fact that they are currently ignored that means that those parts of the file do not potentially need updating when Freeview service "shuffles" occur.

It was looking at frequency_finder.xml (without noticing the error in the section info for adults) that set me off investigating this area and finding the message that has caused so much controversy.

Incidentally I have just noticed the name change from "Update config files" to "Update provider files" (or similar - I can't access my PVR to check just now) in the ABM menu - a good move in my opinion in many respects, BUT frequency_finder.xml is a provider file, re-running DVB-T frequency finder appears to be the only way to update it other than by manual file editing, therefore this command logically should re-run DVB-T frequency finder! This illustrates quite clearly the problems (or even impossibility) of choosing 1/2/3 word phrases to describe what are actually quite complex issues, and in my view an important role of a user guide is to incorporate longer explanations where the short phrases can be misconstrued.

EMJB