EMJB's Terrestrial Channels brainstorm

[Huevos]

So I'll rephrase the question.
If I happen to be able to pick up signals for different muxes from different transmitters, can "DVB frequency finder" be used to create an ABM providers file that includes them all (or all the ones I want)?
And, in that situation, is there anything that could produce a custom terrestrial.xml file containing just the muxes I can see and wish to use?

Still you are confusing different issues.

1) "DVB frequency finder" creates a providers file. That providers file lists all the strongest unique muxes where the frequency of the mux in "SDT actual" does not correspond with the tuned frequency or where the SI tables do not list a frequency for that mux. It also adds the strongest DVB-T mux as the home transponder. When ABM uses this file it substitutes any "wrong" or missing frequency in the SI tables with the correct one from the providers file. Previously this operation was laborious manual process but now it is handled automatically by "DVB frequency finder".

2) Because ABM produces its result by reading just one mux there is no way to know whether all the muxes listed in the SI tables are within the reception scope of the hardware.

3) Neither "DVB frequency finder" nor ABM creates terrestrial.xml files.

4) If you want a custom terrestrial.xml use the TerrestrialScan plugin. The output to file will be the strongest unique muxes. i.e. there will not be duplicate entries if identical muxes are found.

5) Because TerrestriaScan does an exhaustive search, all saved muxes are known to be active at the time of the scan.

[birdman]

Still you are confusing different issues.

Quite likely. It's why I ask questions.

1) "DVB frequency finder" creates a providers file. That providers file lists all the strongest unique muxes where the frequency of the mux in "SDT actual" does not correspond with the tuned frequency or where the SI tables do not list a frequency for that mux. It also adds the strongest DVB-T mux as the home transponder. When ABM uses this file it substitutes any "wrong" or missing frequency in the SI tables with the correct one from the providers file. Previously this operation was laborious manual process but now it is handled automatically by "DVB frequency finder".

So, as I read it, that could handle picking up muxes from more then one transmitter (assuming you had an aerial set-up that achieved this).

4) If you want a custom terrestrial.xml use the TerrestrialScan plugin. The output to file will be the strongest unique muxes. i.e. there will not be duplicate entries if identical muxes are found.

5) Because TerrestriaScan does an exhaustive search, all saved muxes are known to be active at the time of the scan.

Which takes me back to where I started: why isn't this the default terrestrial scanning method, doing away with the need of providing and maintaining an (incomplete) set of transmitter data?
Or, of there is some philosophical reason not to do that, why not make the TerrestrialScan plugin part of the default set-up, rather than an add-on?

[Huevos]

So, as I read it, that could handle picking up muxes from more then one transmitter (assuming you had an aerial set-up that achieved this).

Imagine your local mast has PSB1/2/3 but not COM7/8. But you can see COM7/8 from another transmitter. Then we read SI from PSB1. ABM scan should include channels on COM7/8 and these should be tunable.

Which takes me back to where I started: why isn't this the default terrestrial scanning method, doing away with the need of providing and maintaining an (incomplete) set of transmitter data?
Or, of there is some philosophical reason not to do that, why not make the TerrestrialScan plugin part of the default set-up, rather than an add-on?

Because enigma2's built in scan functions work fine in 98% of cases. And an exhaustive scan is not something that that needs to be done unnecessarily. We had the same resistance with OpenPLi when we proposed adding the regions to their file, but in the end they saw that the benefits were huge, and they dion't need to even maintain the file because we do it for them. And if for some reason the regions entries are out of date or wrong or missing just select the default Europe bandplan and do an exhaustive search.

TerrestrialScan is an extra for use in the few percent of cases that need it. It was made as a plugin so it can be dropped into any image where a user wishes. Many reason for the plugin was to avoid duplicates and only scan in the stronger version. Later engima gave users the option to turn on namespace subnet for DVB-T only which means there is another way to handle duplicates. Later I added the bouquet feature and the terrestrial.xml creation.

The end result from ABM and Terrestrial scan should be the same, but ABM scan does it much faster and is much more versatile with many providers and customisation options for the created bouquets.

And remember enigma2 scan is generic for reading the basic SI standard descriptors. ABM is completely different. It can read all sorts of non-standard user defined descriptors that only make sense for individual providers.

[birdman]

Because enigma2's built in scan functions work fine in 98% of cases. And an exhaustive scan is not something that that needs to be done unnecessarily.

But, as you note yourself, you can save the result of a one-off full scan to save the results that apply to your particular set-up.

and they dion't need to even maintain the file because we do it for them.

But no-one needs to do it at all...

And if for some reason the regions entries are out of date or wrong or missing just select the default Europe bandplan and do an exhaustive search.

Once. Then use the result for future quick scans.

The end result from ABM and Terrestrial scan should be the same, but ABM scan does it much faster and is much more versatile with many providers and customisation options for the created bouquets.

ABM doesn't scan...

And remember enigma2 scan is generic for reading the basic SI standard descriptors. ABM is completely different. It can read all sorts of non-standard user defined descriptors that only make sense for individual providers.

So why not put the handling of those descriptors into a generic scan method and just have ABM produce bouquets from the result? Separate "getting available services" and "presenting available services in a user configurable display" into two distinct functions?

[Huevos]

But, as you note yourself, you can save the result of a one-off full scan to save the results that apply to your particular set-up.
But no-one needs to do it at all...
Once. Then use the result for future quick scans.

This is already possible with enigma2 scans so I don't understand what you are complaining about.

ABM doesn't scan...

ABM does exactly what enigma2 scans do. It reads the SI tables. The difference is it collects all its data from a single transponder rather than reading the SI tables on all active transponders.

So why not put the handling of those descriptors into a generic scan method and just have ABM produce bouquets from the result? Separate "getting available services" and "presenting available services in a user configurable display" into two distinct functions?

Because they are not generic descriptors. And why shouldn't ABM handle the complete job?

[birdman]

And why shouldn't ABM handle the complete job?

Because splitting things into definable stand-alone actions, then having something else combine them always makes more sense to me.
When I program I use subroutines/functions when there is a common action to undertake. Then the same code can be used from anywhere (happy to drop it into a shared library if necessary...) and only needs to be written/extended/fixed in one place.
But perhaps it's just the mathematician in me trying to simplify things....

[Huevos]

Doesn't make sense. The data has already been read from the SI tables by ABM. Why then would we need Enigma2 to do the whole job again in a slower way.

Complete ABM Freesat scan takes 15 seconds. Tell me another way to do it that can compete with that.

[EMJB]

I have been trying to draft the guide, which has raised a number of new questions as follows:

(1) Reading the thread "Thread: ABM (Terrestrail ): Add HD channels/regions:"

Screenshot no 4 of the end of DVB-T frequency finder search does not match the presentation I see (a standard "i" message box in the centre of the screen).
Q 1.1 Is mine the latest version, and likely to be retained?

Under that screenshot are the words "Disable the "official" ABM provider. You can re-enable it after the ABM file has been updated with the details you upload".
Q 1.2.1 I am not sure I understand the term "official ABM provider" - do you mean providers other than that generated by DVB-T Frequency Finder?
Q 1.2.2 Are you saying the list of transmitters will only be updated from any new configuration file after de-selecting and then re-selecting the relevant provider?
If the latter is true, it is a general issue of which the users need to be aware rather than something related to DVB-T Frequency Finder.

The thinking behind this statement seems to be that the user will upload his data to the OpenVix team, receive that data back some days later, update his config files, and next time use that data by selecting it from the transmitter list (which incidentally avoids the need for backing up the file!). However as it is already available on the Provider page, I would leave all the provider selection unchanged next time.
Q.1.2.3 Please clarify your thought processes here?

Under the last screenshot, the suggestion that the USER should save the file conflicts with my interpretation of the assurance that re-running would not be necessary after config file and OpenVix updates. From my understanding of the memory structure etc, the file referenced will be lost when flashing a new image, and occasional OpenVix updates involve re-flashing, so I had assumed the file was backed up to the hdd but perhaps I am wrong.
Q 1.3 Please clarify the circumstances when the file information will be lost so I help users judge if the effort of backing it up is worthwhile.


(2) DVB-T Frequency Finder Operation:

The Topfield community halved the search times by only searching the "LP" Freeview streams - the UK did not (and presumably still does not) use the "HP" streams (don't ask me what these terms mean - I just know the benefit of limiting the search and how to limit the search on a terrestrial Topfield). If the DVB-T Frequency Finder does not already use this "trick" and it were adopted, the search time would presumably come down from ~10 minutes to ~5. Then the reduced frequency range post 700Mhz clearance would reduce the time to < 4 minutes, to make it comparable with the digital TVs I have owned.

Q2.1 Does DVB-T Frequency Finder already use this "trick"?

Q2.2 If not, could it be readily modified to do so?


(3) I believe it has been said that whether service names auto-update is a matter of an Enigma2 setting.

Q3.1 Is the the setting at Main Menu -> Setup -> TunerConfig -> Miscellaneous -> Disable background scanning?

If not:

Q3.2 Where can I find what the default setting is?
Q3.3 Is it user controllable?


(4) The descriptive text associated with Main Menu -> Setup -> TunerConfig -> Miscellaneous -> Disable background scanning indicates to me that changes in the Freeview line-up such as addition of new services or old ones deleted will be detected if background scanning is not disabled.

Q4.1 Am I right in assuming the lamedb files will be updated but not the bouquets generated by ABM?
Q4.2 Is the "Last Scanned" bouquet updated also?


(5) Preferred Tuner setting:

Main Menu -> Setup -> TunerConfig -> Miscellaneous has various settings for "Preferred tuner for recordings" with "Disabled" and "Auto" among the choices.

Q5.1 What is the difference between these "Disabled" and "Auto"?


(6) Config Files

I order to advise the user when to update these, when to wait for updates such as after line-up changes, and on the implications of no internet connection, I would like to get a better understanding of which features depend on these files. My interpretations from what information I have found are that they are used for:

Q6.1 For the ABM transmitter list - Is this correct?
Q6.2 For the "Swap Channels" feature on the ABM Providers page - Is this correct?
Q6.3 For the section bouquets mentioned on the ABM Providers page - Is this correct?
Q6.4 For the hiding the sections mentioned on the ABM "Hide sections" page - Is this correct?
Q6.5 Anything else?

The "Update config files" command appears on the ABM page of the menu, and thus would appear not to apply to the Enigma automatic scan transmitter list that appears on the "Tuner Setup" pages.
Q 6.6 How does the user ensure that the Enigma scan transmitter list is up-to-date?

TIA,


EMJB

[Huevos]

1)
"Official provider" means it was downloaded as part of the plugin. So if you submit your own it can be incorporated into the official one.
"Save the file" means collect the file from your receiver.
The rest I have no idea what you are asking. With this tool the data is always ready to use immediately.

2)
I never owned a Topfield and don't intend to. I have no idea what these terms refer to.

3)
Service labels have nothing to do with background scanning. Don't touch the background scan settings unless you know why you are doing it. Service labels update automatically unless dxHoldName is set in lamedb.

4)
I don't believe anything is deleted, only that new service will be added. This has nothing to do with bouquets.

5)
How is this related to the original topic?

6.1-4)
Yes to all.

6.6)
Either download it from github (xmlUpdate plugin can do this for you)
Or update it yourself if you know the details,
Or use TerrestrialScan plugin to do it for you.

Lastly Abu changed several texts from ABM last night based on your suggestions.

[birdman]

Complete ABM Freesat scan takes 15 seconds. Tell me another way to do it that can compete with that.

This is about Terrestrial (UK Freeview - DVB-T).

[birdman]

The Topfield community halved the search times by only searching the "LP" Freeview streams - the UK did not (and presumably still does not) use the "HP" streams (don't ask me what these terms mean - I just know the benefit of limiting the search and how to limit the search on a terrestrial Topfield).

VP and HP?
Vertically and Horizontally polarized. Not actually used.

[Huevos]

This is about Terrestrial (UK Freeview - DVB-T).

Try doing an ABM scan of UK terrestrial compared to any other method. ABM takes just seconds. Are you asking all these questions without even opening the plugin?

[Huevos]

VP and HP?
Vertically and Horizontally polarized. Not actually used.

Of course not. It is not something the box can control. That is down to how the aerial is mounted on the pole. i.e. either correct for your transmitter or wrong.

[birdman]

Are you asking all these questions without even opening the plugin?

Well, I am asking why I need to use a plugin rather than there being one standard method (and front end) for obtaining service frequencies.

[Huevos]

I'll ask again. Are you asking all these questions without ever having used the plugin?