FTA services not clearing or missing - diagnostic steps

[killingtime]

Hello,

I'm trying to understand what's going on with FTA services that don't clear, or cannot be found on a transponder. There's no 'problem', I'm just scanning around as part of the hobby and some stuff doesn't work as I would expect it to, and I'd like to understand why.

Using OpenVix 5.3. Astra2 E\F\G. I run a blind scan every few weeks to refresh the 'last scanned' list with 'clear before scan' set to 'yes', and put any services I want into the Favourites bouquet. No other bouquets used.

Sometimes, a service that's listed as FTA on a satellite directory (like kingofsat) either doesn't come back on a listed transponder (even if you scan that transponder only), and sometimes a service shows up but will not display. As of today, here are some examples;

https://en.kingofsat.net/pos-28.2E.php

xxXpanded TV - not showing up after a scan on 11538.00 V 94 Europe DVB-S QPSK 22000 5/6
Studio 66 TV 1 - listed in last scanned - sid not found in pat error (any time of the day) - 11597.00 V 98 Europe DVB-S QPSK 22000 5/6
Studio 66 TV 2 - listed in last scanned - not clearing (any time of the day) on 11112.00 H 67 Europe DVB-S QPSK 22000 5/6
Studio 66 TV 3 - listed in last scanned - clears OK.

From what I can gather (please correct);

A service that shows up in 'last scanned' but simply doesn't clear when you zap it (no error messages) is encrypted.
A service that shows up in 'last scanned' and doesn't clear when you zap it with the error message 'sid not found in pat' is not active (not transmitting through the transponder).

Some Questions;

1. Why would a transponder list services that are no longer transmitted?
Presumably the service will come back in the future or there'd be no point in listing it on the transponder - which raises the question where do you find timing info, or is it just a case of wait and see? The EPG for these services comes up blank and stays that way for weeks (even after a nightly refresh on IEPG Data).

2. Is a blind scan on all transponders going to be more accurate than any of the online satellite directories? Or do transponders stop listing some of their services at random? That's a new one on me if so. Alternative, the online directory is wrong.

There is a thrid possibility that I've misconfigured the receiver somehow and the services are there. Using a '5' setting on the blind scan for the most accurate search (I think this is OpenVix setting). That returns about 917 channels for Astra2 D\E\F. The number varies a bit from week to week.

Thanks.

[BrianTheTechieSnail]

Sometimes services do not transmit 24/7.
They're normally still listed when not transmitting.
Often when not transmitting you will get errors like SID not found from OpenVIX.

Sometimes satellite receivers will see services which are not normal satellite TV but something else send via a satellite transponder.
I'm sure satellite operators are happy to accept payment for transmitting any kind of data whether it be a TV station or something completely different.
For instance in a blind scan I see service names that suggest to me that they are used to distribute DAB multiplexs to DAB radio transmitters around the country.

[abu baniaz]

2. The websites are updated with data people find normally using blind scan. So yes, a blind scan will be more accurate than websites.

You have not mis-configured anything, it is just the way it is. The SID not found in PAT issue is normal for part-time channels. Channels come and go, don't expect the same number.

[killingtime]

Hello,

I've done some more testing. I dug out an old sky digibox and hooked it up. No subscription but the the FTA channels still work, and the EPG was still working.

All the services I'm having issues with are no longer listed on the Sky EPG, and I could have sworn that these services were available on Sky at some point in the past.

So in answer to my original questions:

1. Why would a transponder list services that are no longer transmitted? ---> Looks like the people running the satellite just can't be bothered to remove them.

2. Is a blind scan on all transponders going to be more accurate than any of the online satellite directories? ---> Yes.

The online satellite directories appear to be an output of blind scans (as Abu has stated above). If a transponder lists a service as FTA, even though it never transmits that service, it will end up on in the online directory until the site admin has the time to remove it.

I'll email kingofsat and let them know about the services I've (not) found.

Thanks for the replies.

[ronand]

Its not always that simple. A service may be listed as FTA because the encryption flag has not been set. It will not be a fault of the website as it only publishes what is found. A lot of it is automated (for obvious reasons) as I'm sure the site admins have better things to do than read through emails all day (and verifying the reports). Sites such as kingofsat, flysat and lyngsat are very useful but none of them will be 100% correct 100% of the time. As to why the PAT data on the transponder being incorrect/outdated I don't think anyone here would be privy to that information but my guess its just a delay in updating it. Anyway keep blindscanning - its a great part of the hobby and there are sites like satelliweb.fr for reporting feeds found.

[Joe_90]

Hello,

I've done some more testing. I dug out an old sky digibox and hooked it up. No subscription but the the FTA channels still work, and the EPG was still working.

All the services I'm having issues with are no longer listed on the Sky EPG, and I could have sworn that these services were available on Sky at some point in the past.

So in answer to my original questions:

1. Why would a transponder list services that are no longer transmitted? ---> Looks like the people running the satellite just can't be bothered to remove them.

You are correct in your assertion that those services were available on Sky in the past. They have ceased transmitting and Sky removed them from their EPG and channel lists. When you use AutoBouquetsMaker on enigma to read the Freesat/Sky channel lists they no longer come up. Similarly, neither the in-built EPG reader or a plug-in like CrossEPG find entries for those channels in the EPG transponder.

So, for 90+% of users, those channels which have ceased transmitting, are no longer visible in the official lists as the service provider (Freesat or Sky) has removed them. These providers use 3rd parties like RedBee or similar to manage their EPG listings and they are usually quick to act when there are changes.

At the individual transponder level, the data tables may be being managed by the actual satellite operator and they may only do "housekeeping" at intervals to remove the entries for services no longer active on the particular transponder. Households using standard Sky or Freesat receivers never scan individual transponders as they receive their listings info from fixed frequencies (as does ABM). It's only those of us who blind scan or manual scan transponders who come across residual services which are no longer actually transmitting. As abu said in a previous post - "it's the way it is".

[killingtime]

Thanks for the explanation.

[deepthort]

If I can tag on a related question to this thread... Since the football has come back, I've looked at my old fav list of about 40 different sports channels and found that 19 of them now show <n/a> in place of the channel name. Some of them have indeed disappeared (or maybe just moved or changed configuration) but equally, quite a few still show the correct channel if selected. Does anyone know why this happens, please? Thanks.