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  1. #91
    Moderator abu baniaz's Avatar

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    Bouquets are not the only way to select services. You can select them by the service list. You can jump to a letter of the alphabet using the keys.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    Bouquets are not the only way to select services. You can select them by the service list.
    Thanks - I hadn't come across this - probably because the red button "All" looks very like the "All channels" bouquet.

    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    You can jump to a letter of the alphabet using the keys.
    This makes a very unfriendly facility into something that I might have used a few times, but how is anyone expected to know that the number keys are used in this way? The "Help" key does provide any information.


    EMJB


    Edit: As far as I can see, they are the only way of accessing the EPG - is that correct?
    Last edited by EMJB; 30-08-18 at 10:10.
    Xtrend Xt10000 with 3 Freeview tuners

  3. #93

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    EMJB (31-08-18)

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    Thanks for those links, but they don't seem to contradict anything in my definition. Please explain your objections to my words if you would like them changed.


    EMJB
    Xtrend Xt10000 with 3 Freeview tuners

  6. #95
    Moderator abu baniaz's Avatar

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    You can do whatever you like.

    EPG is EPG.
    Bouquets are bouquets.
    Service list is service list.

    The EPG system invokes the bouquets system when activated and applicable.

    A guide which confused people by using EPG as a singular definition for two/three separate systems is not helpful.

    These are Enigma2 receivers. Not Freeview or Sky receivers.

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    samsid (31-08-18)

  8. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    EPG is EPG.
    Bouquets are bouquets.
    Service list is service list.
    Obviously I agree, but the question is whether they are independent, or whether there are interdependencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    The EPG system invokes the bouquets system when activated and applicable.
    As a result of you previous comment, and my acceptance thereof, I was proposing to amend the second sentence of the bouquet definition to read
    Code:
    "However the bouquets provide the normal way for most users to access a list of available Services in OpenVix, and the only way of accessing
     the EPG, so at least one bouquet will be needed by most users. "
    As you seem to be questioning the accuracy of the reference to the EPG in this sentence, I moved all my bouquets into a separate directory and pressed the EPG key, which gave me:
    NoBouquets.jpg
    which clearly indicates to me that at least one bouquet is needed to use the EPG. The "please wait" message and the "Favourites (TV)" heading would not help someone who got there by mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    A guide which confused people by using EPG as a singular definition for two/three separate systems is not helpful.
    Please do me the honour of reading what is there, not what you think is there. THE DEFINITION I USED FOR EPG DOES NOT MENTION BOUQUETS OR SERVICE LISTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    These are Enigma2 receivers. Not Freeview or Sky receivers.
    Agreed, but peoples experience, and hence their understanding of terms, may well colour their interpretation of terms such as "EPG", and therefore I want to be sure my words in later sections are not misunderstood.


    EMJB
    Xtrend Xt10000 with 3 Freeview tuners

  9. #97
    Moderator abu baniaz's Avatar

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    Default method of opening/showing bouquets on OpenViX is pressing the TV button. There are other methods.

    There is actually a bug in OpenViX. If there are no bouquets, it should open All Services. Check with PLI for this.

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    Moderator abu baniaz's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMJB View Post

    Please do me the honour of reading what is there, not what you think is there. THE DEFINITION I USED FOR EPG DOES NOT MENTION BOUQUETS OR SERVICE LISTS!
    You are right. I am wrong.

    Post 82
    • EPG: Electronic Programme Guide, i.e. the list of programmes with their descriptions for each Service.
    2.10 Electronic Programme Guide (EPG)
    This refers to the list of future programme names and details for each Service provided to enable viewing and recording to be planned. To some people it refers solely to the feature
    that displays that information, and to others includes the data itself – using the former definition an “update to the EPG” is a software change, whereas in the latter case it also
    encompasses programme changes and addition/deletion of data as time progresses so can occur several times per hour per Service. In most cases the context makes it clear which
    is meant, but I have used the term “EPG data” where appropriate to avoid any misunderstanding.

  11. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by abu baniaz View Post
    There is actually a bug in OpenViX. If there are no bouquets, it should open All Services.
    I can only write a User Guide round what OpenVix actually does, not what it ought to do, particularly as the latter can be so subjective. However if there is a definite intention to fix a problem or improve something within a couple of weeks and the new version identity is known, then I would consider putting in statements that explain the difference in behaviour between versions.

    EMJB
    Xtrend Xt10000 with 3 Freeview tuners

  12. #100
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    The next section of my draft user guide relates to how the UK Freeview system works. I would expect to relegate most of this to an appendix, or even omit entirely, in the final version but have included here to ensure I understand how ABM & Terrestrial Scan will react to particular circumstances and to the apparent Enigma2/Linux driver problems discussed in https://www.world-of-satellite.com/showthread.php?59943.

    Code:
    3	THE FREEVIEW SYSTEM
    3.1	Introduction
    
    This section describes the key features of the Freeview system and its terminology from the perspective of OpenVix tuning.
    
    3.2	Regions & Transmitter Groups
    
    The term “region” has a specific meaning in the context of Freeview – it is the area served by one of the regional variants
     of BBC 1 & ITV. Unfortunately the two organisations sometime have different regional boundaries (typically one organisation
     dividing the other’s region into 2), so transmitters are divided into “Transmitter Groups”, in which each transmitter transmits a
     particular combination of regional variants.
    
    In many areas it is possible to receive signals from transmitters for two or more groups, with the aerial orientation and type
     determining which give the best signal at the PVR. The term “your region” or similar therefore would be more pedantically
     expressed as something like “the Region associated with the best signals received by your PVR”.
    
    There are ~15 Freeview (UK) Regions with varying in size from high hundreds of square Km to tens of thousands of Square Km
     to reflect different population densities. The Regions and Transmitter Groups associated with each transmitter can be found from
     the spreadsheets referenced here.
    
    3.3	Service Numbering
    
    Freeview Services have a “Logical Channel Number” (LCN) that is universally used in televisions and programme listings in 
    newspapers etc. There are substantial gaps in the numbering, allowing Services of similar types to have adjacent numbers,
     and thus allowing automatic removal of some Service types (e.g. Adult) or automatic generation of bouquets for particular 
    Service types (e.g. Children’s) based purely on LCN. The gaps allow new Services to be added without invalidating such logic. 
    Further gaps appear when the receiver is incapable of processing certain Service types (e.g. internet-based & text Services in 
    the case of OpenVix). A list of Services can be found at https://www.radioandtelly.co.uk/freeviewchannels.html.
    
    The LCNs are only employed in the user-interface, and the actual selection of Services is by a parameter known as
     “Service Id” (SvId), which is unique across the network, so regional variants of Services have the same LCN but different SvIds.
    
    N.B. LCNs in the range 690-699 are used for test & other temporary Services. 
    
    3.4	EPG Data
    
    Each mux carries all the EPG data for all the Services in its Transmitter Group, but not for Services in other Transmitter Groups.
     This allows single tuner devices such as televisions to display the EPG data on Services on muxes other than that currently in use.
     Thus if not all muxes are received, the full set of schedule information for the Region is still available, which is somewhat confusing
     to the user if the irrelevant information is not suppressed in some way. Data for individual Services is identified by SvId, avoiding
     the regional ambiguities in the use of LCNs.
    
    As it is impractical to transmit all the EPG data in one data frame, the EPG data is transmitted as individual events, with an Event
     Number to allow correlation between subsequent transmissions of the same data. I suspect different Transmitter Groups use
     different Event Numbers for the same programme.
    
    3.5	Mux Names & Ids. 
    
    The principal Freeview muxes are designated PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5, COM6, COM7, & COM8, and are supplemented in
     populous areas by local muxes. The contents of the muxes can be found at sites such https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/multiplexes,
     though as with so much information on the internet it is difficult to find reliable and guaranteed up-to-date sources. The principal
     mux names are not affected by regional variations in BBC 1 & ITV, so the mux names need to be qualified if you wish to refer to
     just one regional variant (e.g. “PSB1” refers to a mux including any regional variant of BBC 1, and PSB1 (Anglia) refers to the
     variant transmitted in the Anglia region). 
    
    The muxes are allocated Transport Stream Identities (TsId’s) which reflect any variation in Service content, but not variations in
     ancillary information such as EPG data and transmitter details. Thus PSB1 & PSB2’s TsIds vary by region, (as of August 2018)
     PSB3 has one TsId for London and another for elsewhere, and COM5-8 have the same TsIds nationwide.
    
    3.6	Mux Types
    
    Freeview uses originally used just the DVB-T standard and only included Standard Definition (SD) video, and then introduced
     the DVB-T2 standards on an additional mux (PSB3) to carry High Definition (HD) video without a major reduction in the number
     of Services that could be carried. As a result the muxes are often referred to as SD and HD respectively, even though the DVB-T2
     muxes include some SD Services and DVB-T could carry HD video. When the COM7, COM8, & local muxes were added the more
     efficient DVB-T2 standard was adopted. I believe there has been talk of upgrading all the muxes to DVB-T2 to allow additional
     Services or reduce the number of muxes (and hence spectrum utilisation) required, but such a move would make many televisions
     useless so is likely to be some time away.
    
    3.7	Freeview Transmitters
    
    Freeview has three “levels” of transmitter, as follows:
    
    •	Freeview Extra, which transmit muxes PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5, COM6 at high power plus some combination
     of COM7, COM8 and local muxes generally at a lower power. Different local muxes may be transmitted on the same frequency
     using directional aerials to limit interference – the term “petal” is used to describe these transmissions.
    
    •	Full Freeview which transmit PSB1, PSB2, PSB3, COM4, COM5, COM6 only.
    
    •	Freeview Light, which transmit PSB1, PSB2, and PSB3 only.
    
    The Freeview Light transmitters are divided into groups together with one Full or Extra Transmitter, and transmit precisely the
     same data streams as the “parent”. Among other things, this means that the programme guide etc information for Services on
     the missing muxes is still available. These transmitters generally perform a “fill-in” role, transmitting at low power to cover a
     gap in the parent transmitter coverage such as a town in a steep-sided valley. Some users on the edge of the cover may also
     be able to receive COM4/5/6 from the parent “Full” transmitter while receiving a better signal for PSB1/2/3 from the 
    Light transmitter.
    
    3.8	Mixing Signals From Different Transmitter Groups
    
    In some areas it is possible to receive signals from more than one Transmitter Group. While receiving different muxes from different
     groups will not affect the audio and video, there will be problems with the EPG (at least). Take the case where the PSB muxes are
     obtained from Transmitter Group 1, and the COM muxes from Transmitter Group 2, then:
    
    •	If the EPG data is obtained from a PSB mux, all will be OK, as the COM muxes contain the same services with the same SvIds
     as they would if they were received from group 1.
    
    •	If the EPG data is obtained from a COM mux, then it will refer to the regionalised Services using the SvIds appropriate to Transmitter
     Group 2, but these will not exist in the Service list or any bouquet, and so the BBC1, ITV and possibly BBC1 HD, EPG data will be missing,
     and the EPG display will be omit these services completely.
    
    As the mux being used to collect EPG data is not under user control and affected by recordings starting, for the non-expert the regionalised
     Service EPG would appear to come and go in a random fashion.
    
    If the numbering of common elements of the EPG data is not identical between Transmitter Groups (as would seem likely), it would probably
     be necessary to clear all the EPG data when changing the source mux. 
    
    3.9	Transmitter Frequencies
    
    You can find the current frequencies, planned changes and muxes of transmitters serving your location by entering your postcode at
    http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/coveragechecker. Which of those transmitters is optimum for you will depend on factors such as aerial
     orientation (which may not be obvious with a communal aerial system) or very localised obstructions (e.g. a bungalow with adjacent
     tall buildings). You may wish to use a non-optimum transmitter tin order to receive its regional programmes, but this will normally
     require re-orientation of your aerial and perhaps use of a different aerial optimised for the new frequencies.
    
    3.10	Interactive Services
    
    The “Interactive” Services in the UK and Eire are provided using “MHEG”, which is described in some detail here. It is used in
     several ways:
    
    1)	To implement the BBC’s “Red Button” facility on BBC TV Services.
    2)	To provide information on current programme beyond that in the EPG on Radio Services.
    3)	To provide some text + crude graphic Services which have no audio or video.
    4)	To allow broadcast of information such as need to retune.
    5)	Implement the Freeview “IPTV” Services which look to the user like normal Services having EPG etc entries, but use
     the internet rather than the transmitted signals as the source of video and audio.
    
    Of these, implementation of 1-4 appear to be universal on UK market televisions sets, but 5 seems to be unusual in my limited
     experience. However none are implemented by OpenVix.
    
    Though the BBC “Red button” Services are intended to be accessed by the Interactive facilities, they are in fact normal TV Services
     which can be accessed by any TV or PVR (including OpenVix) via the LCN etc.
    
    3.11	Changes
    
    There are two types of change that affect use of every Freeview receiver as follows:
    
    1)	Very infrequent changes of transmitted frequency or the addition of new muxes, which in the past have probably averaged
     once per ~3 years for most transmitters, possibly nearer one per year for the Extended Freeview transmitters. As of August 2018
     we are ~half way through a period of revised frequency allocations to free up some of the frequency band for mobile telephone
     use (see here for more information) – those that have not had their frequencies changed recently can expect them to change in
     the next 2 years.
    
    2)	Changes to the mux contents, which have occurred at irregular intervals, perhaps averaging ~2 months. These changes 
    have included Service name changes, LCN changes, movement of Services between muxes, and the addition & removal of Services.
    
    LCN changes and new Services potentially invalidate automatic processes to generate bouquets, or hide, categories of Services
     where these are based on the LCN numbering system.
    
    When Services are moved between muxes, they normally continue to be transmitted on the old mux with an LCN in the 690’s for
     a few weeks. Until a rescan is performed the change of LCN will not be recognised so all will appear normal till the old version is
     discontinued. A warning to rescan is normally transmitted via the Interactive facilities, but will not be visible on OpenVix PVRs
     (see para 3.10 above).

    EMJB
    Xtrend Xt10000 with 3 Freeview tuners

  13. #101
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    Further to my previous post, I should have included the statement that Freeview(UK) always uses an Original Network Id (onid) of 9018, so this cannot be used to distinguish between regions.

    EMJB
    Xtrend Xt10000 with 3 Freeview tuners

  14. #102
    Moderator Huevos's Avatar

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    Yes .

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