ABM (Terrestrial): Frequency Finder. Birdman's thread

[abu baniaz]

ABM is provided with a frequency to tune to. If the frequency to tune to is not valid any more, the ABM file needs to be updated. As mentioned above, they can use the new details immediately without waiting for us.

No, ABM does not scan. It tunes to frequency specified and reads tables being broadcast.

ABM does not scan

ABM does not scan

ABM does not scan

ABM does not scan

[icemen]

True that.
What is a dvb-t tuner?
Is that standard terrestrial tv connect via aerial?

[Huevos]

True that.
What is a dvb-t tuner?
Is that standard terrestrial tv connect via aerial?

Yes and if you want to receive terrestrial TV on you enigma2 receiver you need one.

[icemen]

We get it currently via sly and cable tuners. Why do we need to connect a third? Can i add 1 to solo 2? It comes with 2 sly tuners and i have a vu turbo tuner connected for cable.

[Huevos]

Why do we need to connect a third?

If you need to ask that question this thread is not for you.

[birdman]

Because is already stated numerous times the tuners are not blindscan capable. They need to follow a bandplan.

???
You could scan all possible frequencies (I've done this, so it must be possible) once, then save the result for quick future scans. This removes any need to have a per-transmitter set of frequencies configured which is a) incomplete and b) wrong when they change (as happened to Sandy Heath a few weeks ago).

And yes, ABM could use "system scan" to scan all the frequencies just like TerrestrialScan plugin does, but that would defeat the object (which is a fastscan of a single transponder).

But ABM doesn't scan (see above...)!?!

BTW. What do you mean by a transponder in DVB-T(2) terms.

[EMJB]

ABM does not scan.

The arguments on this terminology seem a little odd when the ABM Configure Menu includes a "Schedule Scan" entry!

This is why it is incorrect for people to be advised to run ABM if tehy are having

This sentence appears to be incomplete, but does it appears to imply that under some circumstances people should not run ABM. Where is this advice?

Whatever the method used, data will need to be used.

.. for complete channel list generation, I assume. I have 2 televisions and one PVR that can manage without any data tables to get a complete list of available programme channels, with the universally used "LCN" numbering system. In the case of the Topfield PVR I implemented the logic to deal with duplicated muxes, but I suspect it is little used as the scan single transmitter option speeds things up. This was relatively easy to do as the "lamedb" equivalent on the Topfield included all received muxes and all channels LCNs, so identification of duplicates was easy as was measurements of signal strength to determine which should be deleted, as was the actual deletion. Unfortunately I lack the time/inclination/expertise to try to reproduce this logic for the Enigma2 machines.

If it is from a repository, someone will have to add it. There will always be a lag.

The lag can be between the information becoming available (many months) and being implemented if you adopt the suggestions I have made elsewhere without affecting the user.

The only user guide I can find is the video at https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...-using-OpenViX. While such videos can be a useful adjunct to a written guide, in my opinion they are rarely a suitable replacement for the following reasons:

• They rarely address the objectives and limitations of the subject of the guide
• The user may find it difficult or impossible to view the guide and control the subject device simultaneously
• They work reasonably if there is a fixed sequence of operations, but can fail miserably if one action depends on the results of a previous one, or if things go wrong

EMJB

[abu baniaz]

The arguments on this terminology seem a little odd when the ABM Configure Menu includes a "Schedule Scan" entry!

So what is your suggestion please?

This sentence appears to be incomplete, but does it appears to imply that under some circumstances people should not run ABM. Where is this advice?

Completed and edited.
This is why it is incorrect for people to be advised to run ABM if they are having reception issues, especially on satellite.

The context of the statement was made while explaining the differences in the processes. Enigma scanning interrogates/verifies the reception. ABM "whatever name you suggest for scanning" just reads the data even if you cannot receive it.

Some people on various forums repor: I cant receive channels, I am getting tune failed.
Others advise: Have you updated ABM config files? Have you run ABM?

For reception issues, it is best to check reception.

.. for complete channel list generation, I assume. I have 2 televisions and one PVR that can manage without any data tables to get a complete list of available programme channels, with the universally used "LCN" numbering system. In the case of the Topfield PVR I implemented the logic to deal with duplicated muxes, but I suspect it is little used as the scan single transmitter option speeds things up. This was relatively easy to do as the "lamedb" equivalent on the Topfield included all received muxes and all channels LCNs, so identification of duplicates was easy as was measurements of signal strength to determine which should be deleted, as was the actual deletion. Unfortunately I lack the time/inclination/expertise to try to reproduce this logic for the Enigma2 machines.

You keep ignoring the fact that the user can select UK and scan every listed frequency. Channel 21-60. System is not mentioned, so DVB-T and DVB-T2 services will be scanned (not referring to ABM). Not helpful for those in clash areas. I have already mentioned about clash areas.

The lag can be between the information becoming available (many months) and being implemented if you adopt the suggestions I have made elsewhere without affecting the user.

The features we have added get the data that is valid at the point in time it is run and usable straight away. There is no lag! The users can upload the file for someone to add or submit the pull request so neighbours do not have to repeat process.

Once again, valid current reception frequency data. Independent of anyone. How many times does this have to be repeated?

You're a programmer, I trust you can fetch the files from Github.

The only user guide I can find is the video at https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...-using-OpenViX. While such videos can be a useful adjunct to a written guide, in my opinion they are rarely a suitable replacement for the following reasons:

• They rarely address the objectives and limitations of the subject of the guide
• The user may find it difficult or impossible to view the guide and control the subject device simultaneously
• They work reasonably if there is a fixed sequence of operations, but can fail miserably if one action depends on the results of a previous one, or if things go wrong

EMJB

When was that guide made? When were the new features made available? Please write an updated guide/upload a video and I shall make it a sticky.

We are not a commercial company. We do this for a hobby.

The source code fro Enigma2 is on Github. Please feel free to contribute. When you joined the forum, there was hope you would add the CRID system as someone cited you as a contributer to the code.

[abu baniaz]

We are not going to add values for before and after changes.

Please start your own thread with the file and instructions on how to use it. People can use it if they want.

[EMJB]

@ abu baniaz

I would just like to make the following points:

1. I do not have a problem with the use of the word "scan" in the context of ABM. You have complained several times about its use, yet it is used in the ABM menu. Please be be consistent with the menu system when choosing your terminology in these discussions.
2. I have stated several times that my understanding (from experiments some time ago) is that ABM does not operate optimally when a mux is received from 2 or more transmitters. You have not challenged this, so I have assumed it is still true. You may feel that this is a minority issue, but please have the courtesy to either accept this is a limitation and document it, or correct my statements.
3. As I have said before, I found this area so frustrating when I first started using my Enigma2 PVR that I have bypassed the whole issue (I never use the PVR for live viewing, and I adapted a Topfield-related PC application for setting timers & autotimers) . I am therefore loathe to spend time and interrupt my PVR use generating user instructions (and keeping them up-to-date).
4. With regards to your suggestion that I code my own solution, I find any attempts to do more than minor tweaks extremely hard work due to the apparent absence of any definitions of the interfaces to the lower level code (e.g. how do I access the LCN values from the transmitted data streams?), and often total lack of useful comments in existing code doing a similar job.
5. In the original post to which I was referring, you stated " If the guide is not clear and people ask the same questions, I adapt it". From your latest comments it would appear you were not referring to the video - could you please provide a link to the guide to which you were referring - perhaps it does much of what I expect to see, and the main problem is that I haven't found it!

Please understand that I (and no doubt birdman) are trying to understand ABM and make suggestions for its improvement and easing you workload, rather than being critical of you efforts. Inevitably we are occasionally going to use words in a general manner that have a very specific meaning to you - please be patient with us, posts consisting only of repeated statements about not scanning do not help anyone (particularly in the light of point 1 above).

EMJB

[EMJB]

In point 2 of my previous post, I should have said " ABM does not operate optimally when a mux is received from 2 or more transmitters when searching the full band". Sorry about that - can't see how to edit that post.

EMJB

[abu baniaz]

1. ABM "scan" and Enigma2 scan are two different things. It is important to understand that they are different.

Enigma2 scan needs to know which frequencies to scan.
ABM only needs the "home frequency" and any overrides where applicable
Terrestrial scan plugin only needs to know which system to use.

What name do you want to use? You have yet to suggest a better name. If there is no suggestion, shall we agree to use "Enigma2 scan" and "ABM scan". It is vitally important not to misuse one reference for another.

The amount of time Huevos and I have spent on ABM and this is unreal. It quite depressing that what we posted for helping people has been spoilt. Maybe I have misunderstood the intention of the posts. As sometimes happens in written form.

I suppose the frustration is plain to see about what I perceive to be the deliberate mentioning of one "scan" process when discussing another. Even asking why there are two processes. There are actually several "scanning" methods for satellite/cable. You use what works for you/your region. On PLI they go on about fastscan and no need for an xml file. It works fine for them as they are in a different country, using a different system, but not for us.

And I find it unhelpful to suggest we save data that is valid on 31st of March, and re-use it when it is no longer valid and applicable from 1st of April. You need to use valid data for teh scanning process that use it. You have to start again or have a pre-made list that is now valid. Your suggestion of pre-post files would work, but would still need user intervention. So why do the work if there is an other process that can achieve the result accurately and independently.

2. I have stated several times that some data on the signal stream is incomplete and sometimes wrong. Freeview is not open source and the UK does not comply with all DVB standards.

There have been numerous threads by people where they have posted their data and it has been updated. This will be fine until the next changes for the area. Even for my area, I missed out a mux for several weeks.

Your thread is here. We can optimise ABM for your area if you still want.
https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...-region-issues

The old way we did it this:
https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...annels-regions
It was one long thread. I initially I started deleting posts that had been done so as to keep the thread on topic. I then split the threads so that the data was there for future reference and could be renamed to something more appropriate
Yes you are right, it was sometimes very cumbersome. There were a few surprises when one or two people uploades the xml file. All I had to do was change the name and add it. We will not be using the old process any more.

The new way is this
https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...annels-regions

We provided this feature to get the override values and be usable immediately. Instead of acknowledging this, talk was made of non-abm processes.

Please try the new process and report back.

You are referring to a video that was made more than two years ago. Things change. I do not have a Youtube channel.

I can upload a video. Anyone can edit it and annotate and upload for the benefit of others. The Terrestrail scan plugin will be in next release image and is already on the plugin servers for OpenATV

3.
So who do you think should provide/make instructions? It is definitely a lot more difficult for people to do so when one scanning process is being referred to for another scanning process. This thread was meant to be for ABM "scanning", frequncy finder.

4.
No, the suggestion is that a contribution is made to the codebase to benefit everyone. There have been perceived objections to what we have done. So if someone can chip in, brilliant.

There was a plugin called LCN scanner which was meant to sort DVB-T channels by LCN after "enigma2 scanning". Incidentally it was made by one of the first developers of ABM. It did not work for the UK for reasons mentioned above. The primary reason is that the LCN values for Terrestrail in UK are not where they are expected in the plugin.

You will have to interrogate the raw stream data with tools like transedit if you want to investigate. DVBsnoop may help.

5.
Guide for frequency finder in ABM is here
https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...annels-regions

Link was posted in post 4 and pretty sure again somewhere in this thread. Looking at people who have read it, it seems you have not. Please do so, and feel free to ask questions relevant to the topic.

Despite my previous feelings, I will accept that you are asking to understand rather than be obstructive. Please accept my apologies for any "off" remarks. Can we please use "enigma2 scanning" and "abm scanning" depending on the context of what is being mentioned?

As far as I understand, the status of play is as follows: (Any will work, pick the one you want). If unclear, please be explicit when mentioning the process so there is no misunderstanding.

Enigma2 scanning for non-clash and uncomplicated areas:
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". You can also select UK, UK all regions.
In manual scan, select complete. this will "enigma 2 scan" all frequencies listed. Go make a cup of tea, will be long process. Terrestrial does not change that often.


Enigma2 scanning for non-clash and uncomplicated areas: People who know which frequencies to scan
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". You can also select UK, UK all regions.
In manual scan, select predefined transponder (frequency). Select the frequency you want and perform an "enigma2 scan". Repeat for all frequencies/transponders.


Enigma2 scanning for clash and complicated areas: People who know which frequencies to scan
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". You can also select UK, UK all regions.
In manual scan, select predefined transponder (frequency). Select the frequency you want and perform an "enigma2 scan". Repeat for all desired frequencies/transponders.


Enigma2 scanning for clash and complicated areas:
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". You can also select UK, UK all regions.
Im Tuner config, misc options, change the "Ignore DVB-T namespace sub network" option to "no"
In manual scan, select complete. this will "enigma 2 scan" all frequencies listed. Go make a cup of tea, will be long process. Duplicates will not be overridden. Manually delete the channels that do not work. Terrestrial does not change that often.


Enigma2 scanning for clash and complicated areas: Details in Terrestrial.xml are correct
In tuner config, select UK and region. There was a post a while back, you should select area where aerial is pointing to, not necessarily where you live.
In manual scan, select complete. this will "enigma 2 scan" all frequencies listed. his will be a quick process as you are only "enigma 2 scanning" the transponders listed in the xml file for that region.

Enigma2 scanning for clash and complicated areas: Details in Terrestrial.xml are NOT correct
Pointless scanning. Await for updated xml or use another process.

Terrestrial scan plugin, Enigma2 scanning, (no bouquet creation). Any of the above scenarios. ONID not an issue
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". Leave it as whatever it is.
In Terrestrial scan plugin, change/ensure band type is set to Europe.
Change the create xml option to yes. This will create an xml file with only your masts listed for "enigma2 scanning". File will be in /etc/enigma2/ This will mean you will not have to run this plugin again.
This will probe (tune and check reception) the band plan selected and list the most powerful signals only.
An enigma2 scan will be made from the found transponders which will be valid at that point in time without depending on anyone or pre-existing lists.

Terrestrial scan plugin, (with bouquet creation). Any of the above scenarios. ONID not an issue
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". Leave it as whatever it is.
In Terrestrial scan plugin, change/ensure band type is set to Europe.
Change the create xml option to yes. This will create an xml file with only your masts listed for "enigma2 scanning". File will be in /etc/enigma2/ This will mean you will not have to run this plugin again unless you want to recreate bouquet.
Change "create Terrestrial bouquet" option to yes.
This will probe (tune and check reception) the band plan selected and list the most powerful signals only.
A bouquet will be made. TV and radio services in one list.


ABM "scan", area details correct in xml file. Create bouquets,
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". Leave it as whatever it is.
in ABM, select the mast area your aerial is pointing to.
Change options you want
Run ABM
Bouquets will be made. TV and radio bouquets will be separate


ABM "scan", area details correct in xml file. Do not Create bouquets,
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". Leave it as whatever it is.
In ABM, change to expert mode
In ABM, select the mast area your aerial is pointing to.
Change options you want. Ensure you disable the create bouquet options
Run ABM
Lamedb will be created/appended. bouquets not created.


ABM "scan", area details unknown or incorrect in ABM provider xml file. Clash or non-clash areas.
In tuner config, you can leave default as first entry "Europe, Middle East, Africa: DVB-T/T2 Frequencies". Leave it as whatever it is.
In ABM, change to expert mode
Enable the frequency finder option.
In ABM, go to dvb-t frequency finder
This will probe (tune and check reception) the band plan selected and list the most powerful signals only.
An ABM provider file will be made for use after the probing. Override transponders will be listed. The file will be what is valid at that moment in time and usable straight away. Independent of everyone.
Select the new provider in ABM.
Change options you want
Run ABM
Bouquets will be made. TV and radio bouquets will be separate. This is not an ABM bouquet
Upload the provider file so ABM can be updated for everyone
See this thread
https://www.world-of-satellite.com/s...annels-regions

Hopefully that is clear. There is no dependency on pre-existing data files any more. Nobody has to wait

Once again, sorry for any off remarks

[Huevos]

BTW. What do you mean by a transponder in DVB-T(2) terms.

Why are you are trying to belittle other team members. You know very well what it means. The terms transponder and multiplex are used synonymously even though a hardware transponder doesn't exist in the case of terrestrial.

[birdman]

1. ABM "scan" and Enigma2 scan are two different things. It is important to understand that they are different.

But ABM doesn't scan. See above.

Enigma2 scan needs to know which frequencies to scan.

Which could easily be the ones that it is currently using. If there were a way to save this list.
(EDIT: ...or just parse the current lamedb file?).

[birdman]

Why are you are trying to belittle other team members.

I'm not.

You know very well what it means.

No, I didn't. Hence the question.
I thought you might mean "a tuner", and hence the whole DVB-T frequency range.

The terms transponder and multiplex are used synonymously even though a hardware transponder doesn't exist in the case of terrestrial.

Thanks.