View Full Version : Recording subtitles
Is there a PVR anywhere that can reliably record and playback UK Freeview subtitles?
I have been using a Topfield 5800 for years which was faultless with subtitles on recordings. That finally died and I bought a Humax HDR2000T. That will record and replay subtitles correctly on most BBC channels but elsewhere they often detach from the video and audio and simply stream ahead, so that they are impossible to use.
Looking for an alternative that might be more reliable, I received a Miraclebox Premium Twin plus today with the latest Open Vix and after setting it up I tried recording and then playing back with subtitles. The performance was even worse that on the Humax, with BBC subtitles as bad as on the other channels. They appear to be completely detached from the video.
World of Satellite can offer nothing, except an RMA. Does anybody know of a box, or an image that is capable of handling recorded subtitles correctly?
Thanks
PaulAB
Openvix does support subtitle recording and does it properly.
Ive used both a xtrend et8000 and Edison osmini without any problems with subtitles on any channel, in the subtitle menu, if you are having problems, you can set a delay on the subtitles to keep them "in sync" if that is the problem you are having?
Ronand, Openvix does not appear to do a very good job with subtitle recording here. To be clear, we are talking about UK Freeview, and recorded subtitles. I set up recordings on BBC 1 and Channel 4. In both cases when I tried to replay them the subtitles simply streamed ahead -- this is not a matter of being out of sync, they are completely detached from the video. In the case of Channel 4 the recording started with some adverts but the subtitles to the programme were already showing.
Ford 1, it is not a matter of the subtitles not being in sync. As I said, they are completely detached.
This is not unique to OpenVix. The same thing happens on some channels with Humax, and is well documented. If there is a setting that can control this, please let me know, but I cannot see anything that would appear to have any influence.
Where are subtitles handled in recordings? Will it be different with different hardware or it is all handled in the OpenVix software. Perhaps some machines are more capable than others? This is immensely frustrating.
PaulAB
I feel this may be unique to you, I live in a household where both my partner and I are both hard of hearing, and as mentioned I have never had a problem when recording and then playing back. I have "fine tuned" the delay / advance of the subtitles on both receivers to prevent the subtitles appearing before they are needed. this is a problem we used to have on a sky box, but the ability to customise the os in enigma2 have drastically reduced this.
I have no idea why you are having problems, maybe to do with the storage media? only a guess.
I just want to say that afaik openvix and enigma2 have no inherent problems with subtitles being OOS in any way.
I have read your other post and I feel you may have given up on the receiver a little to early, sending it back to WOS.
I'm sure with a little more info from the receiver setup someone would have pointed you in the right direction.
I hope you find a solution to your problem, as I have said, I rely on the subtitle also, so know how frustrating this can be.
Just a thought, what subtitles are you using, from memory there are ususlly 2 options,
1, teletext 888
2, dvb subtitles
I always use the 888 option as the subtitles display a lot more clearly?
Is there a PVR anywhere that can reliably record and playback UK Freeview subtitles?
Make sure that you are selecting the DVB subtitles and not any other option when pressing the subtitle button (the default setting for DVB sub-titles is yellow /green with a black background).
With subtitles being displayed press the subtitle button again on the remote and then press the red button on the remote to bring up the subtitle menu. You can add a delay in there.
Although I don't use sub-titles that much on my Extrend using Vix they are in sync for both live and recorded programs (satellite Freesat).
Rob van der Does
21-10-16, 04:52
Openvix does not appear to do a very good job with subtitle recording here.
Where are subtitles handled in recordings?
Just to make clear what happens: all Enigma2-STB's record the complete TS (transport stream), so that includes all (audio/video/data) what the provider has mixed in his transmission.
e.g. when the provider supports TeleText, that's also available during playback. And the same applies to subtitles.
BBC (1/2/3/ SD/HD) has both DVB & teletext subtitles: I use them all the time and they work perfect. The TeleText subtitles are the ones you should use, as E2 does a perfect job in grabbing them and displaying them exactly as you want, while DVB-subtitles are just graphical overlays in which we can only change the colour.
Be aware that there are two sub-menu's where you can adjust them to your liking:
1- In Main menu/Setup/System/Subtitle settings you make all the global settings. Please make sure you setup the subtitles the correct way; see my screenshot for my settings:
51005
2- You can also make temporarely changes to those settings during playback, by clicking on the subtitle button:
51007
and then on the red button:
51006
The latter method offers you a way to see the effect of your changes right away.
To be clear, we are talking about UK Freeview, and recorded subtitles. I set up recordings on BBC 1 and Channel 4. In both cases when I tried to replay them the subtitles simply streamed ahead -- this is not a matter of being out of sync, they are completely detached from the video. In the case of Channel 4 the recording started with some adverts but the subtitles to the programme were already showing.
So that's indeed the perfect definition of being out of sync.
You can set the (positive or negative) delay in the two menu's I showed you.
The problem with subtitles is, that the provider sometimes send them without a time stamp (or with wrong time stamps). That means they are not ordered to show at a specific time or at the wrong time. During live-TV this is not a problem: they will be shown at the very moment they are received, which will be correct most of the time. But during playback the lack of timings play havoc, as you've seen yourself. BBC used to be very good in this respect, but lately they tend to 'forget' the timings. IMHO a matter of quality control.
But: the good news is that ViX allows you to correct that (although the correction can be different per show). Just play around with the delay settings that show in my 3rd screenshot. When doing so, be aware that it takes some time between your changed setting shows as such. Lately I sometimes had to go as far as to set it to 11 seconds!
Ford 1, it is not a matter of the subtitles not being in sync. As I said, they are completely detached.
I hope you now understand it's indeed about being out of sync.
Will it be different with different hardware or it is all handled in the OpenVix software. Perhaps some machines are more capable than others?
Nope, even the eldest, cheapest ViX-supported STB does a good job in this area. As it should, because recording & playback are basic functionalities of an STB.
Openvix does not appear to do a very good job with subtitle recording here.
If there is a setting that can control this, please let me know, but I cannot see anything that would appear to have any influence.
Hmmm, first you say OpenViX does a bad job, and only then you ask for help. Next time please ask for help first, before drawing any conclusions.
Thanks, I will try some of these suggestions and let you know.
You are right that I gave up very quickly, but that was partly because I asked for help through a ticket a WOS and was sent an RMA to return the machine, which led me to think I had already reached the end of the line.
PaulAB
I have reset factory defaults and am making some new recordings. However I only seem to have DVB subtitles available. There is never a teletext option when I press subtitles button, even with BBC channels. Could I have switched them off, somehow?
PaulAB
Rob van der Does
21-10-16, 12:42
Nope, you can't. Maybe it depends on which BBC-service you are?
But although the quality of the titles is less, you can also use the DVB-titles, and synchronise them the same way.
Yes, I have been playing with sync on the DVB subtitles but it is proving difficult. With one recording I had to go to a delay of 20s and it still was not quite in sync. There is such variability too. Maybe there is a standard delay on each channel but at the moment it seems extremely cumbersome.
I am not quite sure where to go from here.
Is there likely to be better performance with a different image?
PaulAB
Rob van der Does
21-10-16, 14:36
Yes, I have been playing with sync on the DVB subtitles but it is proving difficult. With one recording I had to go to a delay of 20s and it still was not quite in sync.
Yes, it sure is difficult, and when the time laps is large, it will take you some time.
There is such variability too. Maybe there is a standard delay on each channel but at the moment it seems extremely cumbersome.
It is variable, absolutely. But remember it's a fault of the provider, and this fault is really not standard (not per provider & not per service). And then again you'll notice that the fault has (temporally?) gone, and timing is fine.
Is there likely to be better performance with a different image?
No. ViX is one of the few images that has this option at all.
And again: don't blame us or the hardware; it's the provider you should blame.
Tip: Maybe you can use other services?
BBC has multiple services, and maybe they differ in this respect. Or switch between DVB-C//T/S if you have those options.
Thanks for you support with this. However after one and a half days trying to get a workable solution with subtitles I have given up and returned the box. Some of the timings are just crazy and there does not seem to be even one channel that is actually in sync. I have no doubt you are correct about it being down to the way the signal is transmitted, and perhaps it is specifically a UK Freeview problem . However I do not have another options available -- no cable here and no satellite possible.
It is a shame, because dedicated UK Freeview boxes can do a much better job so it must be possible to solve this problem at the receiver end. My Humax is far from ideal but it manages to keep recorded subtitles synced for BBC channels and often for others too. The Topfield that I had, which admittedly only recorded SD, handled them perfectly. I never saw this issue while that machine was still alive.
I suppose OpenVix is international so there is no specific development for UK freeview. A shame, as the machine, and the interface were much better than anything Humax can offer.
Anyway, thanks again for your support.
PaulAB
Rob van der Does
21-10-16, 18:28
FYI: I have no issues with BBC's subtitles. The odd times they are out of sync, the GUI allows me to correct that.
And there's nothing specific about Freeview in this respect.
Well, it is a puzzle. No doubt I have been doing something wrong.
PaulAB
Nope, you can't. Maybe it depends on which BBC-service you are?
But although the quality of the titles is less, you can also use the DVB-titles, and synchronise them the same way.I only have DVB ones too (UK Freeview). I've just tested things out on various recordings from BBC ONE HD, BBC FOUR HD, Dave and Film4. All look fine. The Dave ones slightly out but increasing the delay by 1s fixed that.
I was intrigued to see that there are apparently subtitles (i.e. there is s subtitle stream) on the foreign-language Detective/Drama series which BBC Four shows (Sat - 9pm) but switching them on/off has no effect at all. Presumably those subtitles are merged into the video.
Rob van der Does
21-10-16, 21:11
And what if you just scan 28.2E and go to those services (BBC/ITV)? They really do have TeleText as well, I always use TT (for the reason I gave earlier: far superior to DVB).
UK TV-show in foreign language has indeed English subtitles 'burned' in the video.
And what if you just scan 28.2E and go to those services (BBC/ITV)?That wouldn't be Freeview - that would be Freesat.
And I have no satellite dish.
The only issue I have found, is if you watch or record something that is broardcast "live" like say "the last leg" or "x-factor" then the subtitles are massively OOS but you would expect that as they are being written "On the fly" as it were?
Rob van der Does
22-10-16, 06:11
That wouldn't be Freeview - that would be Freesat.
Oops, have I been mislead by 'Freeview' & 'Freesat' :confused:
Anyway: for the timing issue this makes no difference.
The only issue I have found, is if you watch or record something that is broardcast "live" like say "the last leg" or "x-factor" then the subtitles are massively OOS but you would expect that as they are being written "On the fly" as it were?
That's indeed 'live typing' (imagine how good you have to listen and type for that. And in other countries often translating as well!), so not related to synchronisation issues.
no, not related to sync issue, but as the op never stated the programs he was suffering with, this could have been the problem he was facing all along?
Hi. It was not a live progamme problem, Ford1. We never use subtitles with those because of exactly the problem you have highlighted.
The problem I have experienced is with Free-to-Air Freeview. I am on the Crystal Palace transmitter. The only subtitles available are DVB, at least for every channel I have tried them on. Out of the box, (Miraclebox Premium Twin Plus+ with the latest OpenVix) none of the recorded subtitles were correctly synced with video -- and that was on BBC1 as well as others. For one Channel 4 recording, I needed more than 20 seconds of delay to sync them. Since OpenVix only allows up to 20 seconds, it was therefore impossible.
The box has gone back now. I am afraid I do not have the patience to set about syncing each channel individually as I switch from recording to recording. Perhaps I am unique in experiencing this issue and there was a problem with the way my box was set up. But, as I said, it appeared to be there from the outset, even after a factory reset.
PaulAB
In the last hour I've recorded a series of 10 minute program snippets from various channels on Freeview (Bluebell Hill Transmitter). All the DVB subtitles seem to be near as makes no difference in sync using the default Vix settings. When I checked the other night the same was true for recordings made from satellite (Freesat channels). I have two of each tuners in my Extrend.
Rob van der Does
22-10-16, 17:40
If changing the delay-settings makes no difference, that means that the titles actually do have a time stamp.
I had a quick try this morning and found that bbc2, itv, ch4 broadcasting "live" (pre-recorded HD) was 100% fine.
A bbc1 HD recording from last night was about 5 seconds behind. (Belmont freeview.)
That was as far as I got. Default settings used.
One this I did not check, because it never occurred to me, was if the problem was affected by the aerial source. My aerial feeds into a Humax and then out to the TV. I simply disconnected the TV and connected the humax aerial out to the Miraclebox. I would not have thought that could have any effect. Could it? I have had two UK freeview boxes in series before and never noticed and issue.
Is there a different may of handling subtitle timing on recordings? Of the two Freeview boxes I have had extensive experience with, the Topfield 5800 never showed any timing issues with subtitles on any channels during more than ten years, so far as I can recall. The Humax (HDR2000T) is fine on BBC but it has issues on some other channels. (But that is of a different nature. The subtitles sometimes rush ahead as if they have lost their way, but they eventually sync again -- usually). That would suggest to me -- if timing is the problem -- that Humax and Topfield have found a way to deal with recordings with poor timing signals without ending up with a delay.
PaulAB
Rob van der Does
27-10-16, 05:01
Just to make clear what happens: all Enigma2-STB's record the complete TS (transport stream), so that includes all (audio/video/data) what the provider has mixed in his transmission.
e.g. when the provider supports TeleText, that's also available during playback. And the same applies to subtitles.
BBC (1/2/3/ SD/HD) has both DVB & teletext subtitles: I use them all the time and they work perfect. The TeleText subtitles are the ones you should use, as E2 does a perfect job in grabbing them and displaying them exactly as you want, while DVB-subtitles are just graphical overlays in which we can only change the colour.
The problem with subtitles is, that the provider sometimes send them without a time stamp (or with wrong time stamps). That means they are not ordered to show at a specific time or at the wrong time. During live-TV this is not a problem: they will be shown at the very moment they are received, which will be correct most of the time. But during playback the lack of timings play havoc, as you've seen yourself. BBC used to be very good in this respect, but lately they tend to 'forget' the timings. IMHO a matter of quality control.
But: the good news is that ViX allows you to correct that (although the correction can be different per show). Just play around with the delay settings ...
It is indeed possible that FreeView/Sky/Freesat/Topfield (and possibly more) STB's are not hampered by subtitle timing issues. They are 'closed source' devices, which means that the manufacturer has all the ins and outs of the complete SoC and the way a TS is handled. That means amongst others that they can look into the demuxer, and actually add a timestamp (i.e. the moment the titles are received). As you may know all STB's we support have closed source drivers, so we are not able to do the same. We just have to rely on what the SoC actually does when saving a TS.
Would it be possible for OpenVix to gain access to any of the closed source drivers in order to be able to add a time stamp?
There is another solution, used I think by Panasonic on its Freeview boxes. When you schedule a recording the software asks if you want subtitles. If you select them then the subtitles are 'printed' onto the recording, like subtitles on a foreign language film. Afterwards, they are always on, but they are synchronised. Would it be possible to implement a system like that in OpenVix.
PaulAB
Rob van der Does
29-10-16, 13:21
Would it be possible for OpenVix to gain access to any of the closed source drivers in order to be able to add a time stamp?
No; that's by definition impossible for closed source...
There is another solution, used I think by Panasonic on its Freeview boxes. When you schedule a recording the software asks if you want subtitles. If you select them then the subtitles are 'printed' onto the recording, like subtitles on a foreign language film. Afterwards, they are always on, but they are synchronised. Would it be possible to implement a system like that in OpenVix.
Sounds extremely invoking to the existing functionality, and certainly not something that can be done by a hobby-team. And besides: does the Panasonic ask which titles should be kept that way? Some services have subtitles for over 10 different languages (obviously a Freeview-only box will not be hampered by such a service).
I had a quick try this morning and found that bbc2, itv, ch4 broadcasting "live" (pre-recorded HD) was 100% fine.
A bbc1 HD recording from last night was about 5 seconds behind. (Belmont freeview.)
That was as far as I got. Default settings used.Just a minor update.
The bbc1 HD programme I referred to was infact the Graham Norton Show.
Not only were the subtitles 5 seconds slow, but, in the main, they were appearing in single words rather than sentences or phrases.
Almost impossible to follow.
I've now recorded last nights show in HD and SD, and both recordings are pretty much in sync, maybe a second behind.
Other bbc1/itv recordings I've tried are pretty much 100% ok.
Rob van der Does
30-10-16, 04:53
JThe bbc1 HD programme I referred to was infact the Graham Norton Show.
Not only were the subtitles 5 seconds slow, but, in the main, they were appearing in single words rather than sentences or phrases.
Almost impossible to follow.
That sounds like live-subtitling.
Imagine how fast people have to type, to get this result (even if it's not appreciated by you). And sometimes it includes translating as well.
That sounds like live-subtitling.
Imagine how fast people have to type, to get this result (even if it's not appreciated by you). And sometimes it includes translating as well.It was a pre-recorded programme which I then recorded, so no "live" element to the subtitles.
Having said that, I suppose they could have been added live, but I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
It was a pre-recorded programme which I then recorded, so no "live" element to the subtitles.
Having said that, I suppose they could have been added live, but I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
Yes, they would be live subtitles - they were generated when the program was originally transmitted, in real time. Retransmissions of the program use the same subtitles from what I have seen. Just like when watching news programs, the subtitles invariably end up being spat out on the screen like a gatling gun, a word at a time, sometimes half a sentence. Impossible to follow reliably unless you won the speed-reader of the year award.
The Topfield 5800 did not have a problem with live subtitles as has already been mentioned. I suppose a solution to this could involve buffering the subtitles stream and then printing them on-screen a sentence at a time. When I stream from Mut@nt to a PC of a live program and play the stream with mpv or vlc, I don't get this word-@-a-time problem. So I assume this is something to do with onboard video player settings, or the memory constraints of the Mut@nt.
I'm glad you've mentioned the live subtitling issue, as I have the same problem, on top of the same timing issue seen by Paul. The gatling gun style live subtitle issue is a bug in OpenVix, whereas the latter is specific to the proprietary drivers shipped with specific boxes, so is limited to certain models. In my case an XTrend ET8500. Do you have a Mut@nt HD51, Mick? (and Paul if you happen to still be around!)
I'm putting a patch together for both bugs, although working around the driver bugs will break the handling of badly timed subtitles on the Travel Channel, which was important enough to someone to fix a few years ago.
Yes, I have a Mut@nt HD51 with freeview tuners. I do not experience the problem paulab described with subtitles getting out sync. The subtitles on films and documentaries (i.e. pre-recorded programs) appear as they should, in sync and in full sentences. I only have a problem with live transmissions, e.g. news bulletins, where they appear in gatling gun style, with some words and parts of sentences disappearing within milliseconds. Changing the delay for subtitles does not seem to make a difference with this live transmission problem. I'd be grateful for a fix. :)
That's the way they are on live transmissions - there's nothing to fix.
I beg to differ. The live subtitle code has a subtle bug that means it doesn't match the DVB spec in a couple of important places. Have a look at this video
https://photos.app.goo.gl/p7aSFnfNNTH4j6XF6 and you'll see that live subtitles are pretty much unreadable. What should happen is that single word subtitles should add to the previous words on the line until there's no more space, then that line should be readable in full when the next line starts filling. What we have currently is not the correct behaviour. Note that you don't see this behaviour when they read the headlines on the news as these seem to be fed from the same system as the newsreader's autocue or when they're playing a report.
I'm currently on OpenVix-5.2.037 and noticed the unusable subtitles 'gatling gun' problem on live transmissions has gone away! Now the subtitles appear on a couple of lines at a time and persist long enough to allow reading them. This is both when watching live and when playing back a recording of a previously live transmission. I tried it on BBC News - I assume other channels will behave the same. I don't know if someone changed the code to achieve this, or if it happened as a side-effect of some other code change - either way I am a happy camper and thankful for the result. :)
No accident...……
https://github.com/OpenViX/enigma2/pull/401
No accident...……
https://github.com/OpenViX/enigma2/pull/401
Grateful both to Simon for fixing it and Abu for merging it. Pints await whenever you're in the area! :beer_toast:
Yes, that was me :-)
I've been digging around fixing a problem with non live subtitles running ahead on my XTrend 8500 (coming along in a subsequent release hopefully). Having seen how silly live subtitles were, I couldn't not have a pop at fixing it!
Yes, that was me :-)
I've been digging around fixing a problem with non live subtitles running ahead on my XTrend 8500 (coming along in a subsequent release hopefully). Having seen how silly live subtitles were, I couldn't not have a pop at fixing it!Thanks again Simon. Out of interest, I noticed on recorded shows (perhaps not of live transmissions?) the last subtitles spoken by a person remain on the screen, long after the scene has moved on. Eventually disappear (say after 5 seconds or longer) and then reappear again within a second or so. Of course, if someone speaks again in the subsequent scene the old persisting subtitles are overwritten by the latest utterances. I don't know if this is intentional, or the result of a bug.
Yes, I've been finding the duration of subtitles a little longer than necessary, especially where there's no dialogue for a prolonged period. Back to the DTT specification to see what they say...
jackharrywa
19-04-19, 12:32
i want to know is there any sowtware to use make subtitles for youtube vides i dont know about it
Yes, that was me :-)
I've been digging around fixing a problem with non live subtitles running ahead on my XTrend 8500 (coming along in a subsequent release hopefully). Having seen how silly live subtitles were, I couldn't not have a pop at fixing it!
Hi Simon - I've just updated to 5.2.045 but still seeing the live subtitles appearing a word at a time, though sometimes it then rewrites them afterwards as a single line briefly?
abu baniaz
04-08-19, 22:56
Simon's changes have been reversed until a universal fix can be made
Thanks, Abu. I've gone back to the earlier version with the fix for now so the box is usable and it's working fine.
I think that's version where the improvement has been removed again because it make subtitles in Finland a bit ugly. I'm waiting for a sample recording so I can find out what Finnish broadcasters are doing differently.
One other oddity I've noticed; the subtitles move up and down as you would expect to avoid obscuring content, but on one particular quiz programme (The Chase, ITV1) they always end up at the bottom when the next question appears on screen, making it impossible to read the question text. This doesn't happen on the TV's built-in Freeview or on my old Topfield box, and seems to happen on most if not all episodes.
I'll set a recording for it and take a look. Do you get the same behaviour when watching a recording or watching live? It's repeated all over the place on ITV4 and Challenge, have you noticed the same problem on these other channels?
Thanks. I've only ever watched it live, I'll set some recordings on the different channels and let you know.
Ok, I've looked at recordings from ITV4 and Challenge. The issue happens during the section with one contestant against the Chaser. What seems to be happening is that the last bit of dialogue (usually "here is your next question") before the question and possible answers appear on screen displays at the bottom, but then lingers for around 7-8 seconds, obscuring the question text.
Looking at a couple of other programmes, it seems that, where as a subtitle normally disappears as soon as the next bit of subtitled speech appears, if there is no more speech immediately then the subtitle remains on-screen for several seconds. On the TV's own freeview the subtitle will disappear immediately.
Hi Simon - don't suppose you've had a chance to look at this again?
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