View Full Version : why all the hate for DreamBox's ??
simple question that i'd like a honest answer to, and here is why i have asked the question in the first place.
no matter which satellite forum you go on you always find a few members who slag off every thing to do with dreambox while swearing this or that receiver to be the best, why is this ?.
i my self have owned a dreambox 7020 for 7 years almost 8. it still performs as good today as it ever did and has by far made it's money back for me in more ways than one. i also own a DM600 and several technomate receivers. i have used many other brands as well all of which have performed pretty much exactly as i expected them to.
my only gripe with dream multimedia is that their prices are way off the mark but then again they do have to fund their R&D some thing that the so called clones dont have to.
now i have been a mod and admin on various satellite forums for almost 10 years and i am a member on literally hundreds of satellite forums including those tailoring to the uk, usa , australia amongst just a few. in all that time almost every post i have found where a person slags off a dreambox stems from just 3 possible reasons.
1. the person in question has recently gotten into satellite tv and because they listened to the local doh-nut down the pub, they bought one of these magical satellite boxes as they were told they would get every channel for free forever.
2. the person in question has bought a so called cloned dreambox ( i'll discuss my opinion on them a little later in this post )
3. the person in question is a total plonker with absolutely no idea what there doing and is taking their frustrations and their lack of knowledge out on the box ( wrongly i may add ).
i mean come on. if it were not for dream multimedia and their dreambox where would your precious technomates / VU's and other receivers be ?. dont get me wrong i'm not singling these receivers out nor slagging them off but without dream and their work none of these boxes would exist.
after all was it not dream who introduced the first linux based satellite onto the market ? and was it not dream who created the enigma 1 and enigma 2 operating systems that are now powering your boxes ?.
personally my hate of dreamboxes is totally levied towards the so called clones.
as i have already said almost all problems i see come from people who have bought a clone for idiotic money expecting the real deal in performance. now before you go moaning that clones are better than the original ( DM800 , DM500 etc ) lets have a think about that ?.
the definition of a clone would suggest that the clone is a 1 for 1 copy of the original, now thats total horse sh**e.
the clone makers use far inferior parts just look at how many revisions of tuner card have been released for the DM800 all of which are clones nocked up in dodgy Chinese sweat shops. never once have i had a problem with a original box / tuner combination.
i could go on and on and literally fill tens of pages with my arguments but i think you get my point so please elaborate to my why so much hate towards dreamboxes.
dreamboxs are ok by me :)
I dont hate DM but there prices. The first box I bought was a 2nd DM7020 and it does the job and is reasonable user friendly after a bit of read.
If there was a decent DM alternative to the VU I would consider it.
What I hate are DM fanboys and who complain about all non DM boxes as being clones.
I dont hate DM but there prices. The first box I bought was a 2nd DM7020 and it does the job and is reasonable user friendly after a bit of read.
If there was a decent DM alternative to the VU I would consider it.
What I hate are DM fanboys and who complain about all non DM boxes as being clones.
well i for one dont consider any other manufacturer to be a clone of DM but i do think people have to understand that those boxes would not exist in their current form without the hard work put in by dream multimedia in the first place. i do however have very strong feelings against the actual DM clones who are sold under the DM brand name as it's those boxes that tend to result in problems for the not so clued up users.
Well I have only had clone DM800 which was actualy very good but I have been told I was lucky.
What I will agree on is forums do tend to back a certain box as the best. To be fair to some forums such as this one do so in an open manner and do not pretend to be impartial, people with VU boxes are encouraged to come here the clue is in the name www.vuplus-support.co.uk . It is the othere forums that do my head in saying they are inpartial but when you look deeper they are extreamly biased toward a certain manufacturer, they should come out of the closet and be proud of whatever they believe in.
Well I have only had clone DM800 which was actualy very good but I have been told I was lucky.
What I will agree on is forums do tend to back a certain box as the best. To be fair to some forums such as this one do so in an open manner and do not pretend to be impartial, people with VU boxes are encouraged to come here the clue is in the name www.vuplus-support.co.uk . It is the other forums that do my head in saying they are impartial but when you look deeper they are extremely biased toward a certain manufacturer, they should come out of the closet and be proud of whatever they believe in.
a very valid point and i do agree with you on what your saying. yes this forum is very pro VU but as you say the clue is in the name. the support offered here for not only the VU but all manufacturers is commendable. i'm only asking this question as i tend to find that most people who slag off the dreambox and any other receiver for that matter, tend to be in the "sheep brigade". by this i mean they make their statements with little to no facts to back up their arguments and more often than not there simply agreeing with friends so they can be part of the "in crowd" these people also rarely if ever have owned / used the receiver there slagging off.
even here on this forum i have encountered members who openly berate one receiver or another with no explanation as to why. i'm just asking those people to explain this to me thats all.
Mr. Mister
26-12-10, 18:12
I dont hate DMM.. I just hate their business ethics..
How can they charge the prices they do for a product when the chinese can turn out the same as.. for a 1/3 of the price.
DMM could close the clone market over night and sell 5 times the boxes if they lowered there prices to the same or maybe just above the clone market price..
I have never had a DMM E2 box.. I have had E1 STB`s.. The DM7020`s i had were excellent.. and loved them..
I even had a DMM DM7025 for a short time before i discovered Vu+.. I am more than happy with all my Vu+.. All 4 Duo and 1 Solo..
DMM would need to bring out something really special for me to move away from Vu+..
I dont think anyone really hates Dreambox.. Its the fact that DMM think their product is worth 3 times more than it actually is..
yes as i said earlier and i do agree with you. DMM do charge well over the odds for their boxes as opposed to the Chinese clones, but where is the R&D costs involved in producing a clone ?
I don't mind them. Currently have clone 500s and 800s, both do the job fine :)
silverfox0786
26-12-10, 19:20
its the lone world and high prices that has killed dmm just as the antics of blackhole has killed them
truth is i was gong to buy an 8000 before my duo but after research decided on the duo
its the lone world and high prices that has killed dmm just as the antics of blackhole has killed them
truth is i was gong to buy an 8000 before my duo but after research decided on the duo
no real surprise there considering one is almost a grand when the other in almost a third of that. have to say though my friend has a 8000 and its by far superior to the VU but ridiculously expensive.
silverfox0786
26-12-10, 19:29
no real surprise there considering one is almost a grand when the other in almost a third of that. have to say though my friend has a 8000 and its by far superior to the VU but ridiculously expensive.
the price was one thing but for the specs i thought half price will do me for the slighlt lower but not by much spec
then you have the issue of dreamcrypt i needed my card to work out of the box than get a smargo
basilyoung
26-12-10, 22:17
1. the person in question has recently gotten into satellite tv and because they listened to the local doh-nut down the pub, they bought one of these magical satellite boxes as they were told they would get every channel for free forever.
2. the person in question has bought a so called cloned dreambox ( i'll discuss my opinion on them a little later in this post )
3. the person in question is a total plonker with absolutely no idea what there doing and is taking their frustrations and their lack of knowledge out on the box ( wrongly i may add ).
1/ I think that this comment is a little unfair, I would recomend to any newbie, the DB range, or VU range, or even the technomate 9100 series, as any of these units have advantages over most other units, as to what the units can offer, is down to a learning curve, that all of us had to go through, slagging down the unit choosen by the newbie, is a result of not or being unable to understand the unit, this would also go for any other unit linux or not
2/ cloned units; the only reason to buy a cloned unit is cost, and also there are good and bad clones, and like most peeps, I aviod them
3/, is as per the first part of the main comments
having said the above, there does seem to be an attitude towards recievers, that are not owned by the commentator, there is a certain range of units that seem to bring all the above into this debate
and a certain brand of unit that gets slagged down
for myself, I own several linux based units, some no longer in active use, but still good
and there are units coming up, which will rival the top end of DB units
if the price of the DB units were more in line, ( ie, VU+ make a profit at the current price leval ) with the new compitition, this debate would,nt be here
baz
i have technomate and dreambox linux and non linux boxes as well as vu duo....i dont hate dreamboxes they work very well if you want to pay over the odds for them which is why many people started going down the clone route was never a good option....but to be fair its very much about people who pretend to take an interest in what is best and really only care abour there pocket...i was banned from a forum (which rhymes with malsat) cos i asked a question about the technomate hd 800...all because they promote the spiderbox and have a vested interest in it...one of the worst receivers going....so pheonix if you are associated with many forums maybe one of them is malsat and so tell markman to look at a forum like this and what really democracy is...this is the best and most honest forum i have ever joined and with 16 sat boxes and having joined many that is saying something
basilyoung
27-12-10, 02:26
hence my comments,...satsatsat
yours are just a little less subtle, and think it best to leave it there
baz
I dont hate Dreambox, just their prices, far too high now that theres more genuine competition as in the VU+ and the upcomming Clarke-Tech ET-9000.
I've owned many genuine Dreambox's, DM500, DM600, DM7020 and DM7025. I was going to replace the 7025 with a 8000, then the Duo came along, haven't looked back since. I think DM need to get their heads out of their arses and start dropping their prices in line with the new receivers available on the market. Why one earth would someone buy the new DM800SE when theres the Duo and Clarke-Tech ET-9000 available?
I think that the problem is nothing to do with extortionate pricing/clones.
Dream were an innovative pioneer and as such they did spend an inordinate amount of time and money on R&D that has to be recouped somehow, the problems stem from the fact that they have since failed to maintain their position as market leader but have attempted to compensate for lack of sales revenue by maintaining high retail prices in the face of stiff competition.
Now as these types of receiver are an enthusiast/hobbyist unit it goes without saying that generally, as with any hobby, it will be expensive but Dream are not offering anything out of the ordinary anymore so the enthusiast can no longer justify the cost and will look elsewhere.
By the very nature of these receivers it will always attract the something for nothing brigade who object to having to pay for anything, particularly in the last 12 months with the demise of cable boxes, these are generally the people that create the market for clones (before anyone objects to this comment I am aware that some enthusiasts also use clones)
If you think upto £1000 for an enthusiast receiver is expensive go back a few years to the analogue days when you could spend anywhere between £300 and £5000 for a motorised setup sometimes £3500 just for the receiver alone ! Did anyone object ? No not really, those that could afford it did and those that couldn't dreamt and bought the best they could afford without resorting to slagging off other manufacturers just because they thought they were being ripped if they paid more.
Bottom line is that Dream have fallen off the perch and made some bad business decisions but that in itself does not negate the fact that they still make great receivers its just that the competition has caught up and is about to surpass them.
niteman1969
01-01-11, 03:30
after all was it not dream who introduced the first linux based satellite onto the market ? and was it not dream who created the enigma 1 and enigma 2 operating systems that are now powering your boxes ?.
I think you should check your facts and read about the DBOX2 cable and
Satellite receivers, probably the first linux powered satellite and cable boxes
and the first to run most of the essential plugins and protocols which are still
used in linux receivers today, without which DMM would probably not exist.
Quote from Dreambox Wiki :
The Linux-based software used by Dreambox was originally developed for DBox2,by the Tuxbox project.
The Dbox2 was a proprietary design distributed by KirchMedia for their pay TV services.
The bankruptcy of KirchMedia flooded the market with unsold boxes available for Linux enthusiasts.
The Dreambox shares the basic design of the DBox2, including the Ethernet port and the PowerPC processor.
Who is the Clone????
I in no way hate dreamboxes, but hate all the hype around
the godlike status that some people attribute to DMM.
Enigma is open source so can be used by anyone only the frontend drivers
for the dmm are proprietary as they are for any other non-clone satellite
receivers that use enigma or enigma2.
I agree clones are bad if sold as original DMM boxes to unknowing customers
who could have problems with them later when updating, ie sim probs etc.
Clones of Dm500 not badged as DMM receivers are a grey area,
because they too are based on the DBox2 hardware.
Clones of later dreamboxes are different because of
significant hardware changes.
In many circumstances the build quality / tuner sensitivity is
just as good or sometimes even better than DMM.
But by not developing their own frontend drivers they are
definately breaching dmm's software licence.
To me linux receivers are a tool and I will use any
that will allow me to watch what I want, wether they
are a clone, a dmm or a vu+, technomate etc.
Each have their advantages and disadvantages.
Currently i own 2x Eagle DM500 clones, 1 Technomate TM9100,
1 Dm800hd (Original), and a VU+ Duo I class them in this order.
1. Vu+ Duo (Enigma2 based, manufacturer developed own drivers)
2. Dm800hd (Enigma2 based, manufacturer developed own drivers)
3. Eagle DM500 clone (Enigma1 based, using DMM drivers)
4. Technomate TM9100 (Enigma1 based using manufacturers own drivers, let down by poor images/support)
I have no doubt the dm8000 is just as good or better than the vu+ duo but the price is more
than I would ever pay for an stb.
So down with all the hating!!!
As long as your box does what it was intended for who cares what the badge
on the front says??
I thought I would add my gripe, putting the 8000 and 7xxx series aside, the dreamboxes are just too small. They look stupid under your TV its just designed to so they can ship more. ITs not what I want. I as a consumer want a well supported box hey ticked all the boxes. I want a remote control that comes with it to look and feel expensive,, (you dont get this with a dreambox). I want everything laid out so that all my wires that I plug in have enough room. I dont want too purchase and extra thin SPDIF cable and an extra thin USB key just so that everything can fit in the back just nice.
Cmon lets be honest, the smaller you are going to build a device the less air the device has the hotter it gets fact...
They are just too small, the remotes look to cheap and they are too expensive.... Now if they released a DM800 that looked like a DM8000 with a remote control like the ones here.
http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/en/remote-control
for the same price as a dm800 then maybe I could justify the cost as you would actually buying something that looks and feels expensive. In my opinion they look cheap and the remotes are tacky.
.............. hang on I am not describing the VU Duo am I. lol
I think that everyone agrees that the dreamboxes are over priced in this day and age production costs are coming down and competition is hotting up, DMM need to realise that firstly.
Clones - They have their place in the industry. the clone 500 quite literally brought the dreambox to the masses at a good price.
the 7xxx stink of good quality machines, the 8xxx not so much so.
the machine itself is useless without software. image makers make the box what it is. if there was no VIX we would all still be using some crappy ported DE version 0.95! its people like Andy (coder of Vix) Sic (admin of the forum) and world of satellite (sponsor) that move this market forwards. If Andy and the boys buy the new Etech box then we will probably remain at VIX 1.3.
Respect to the image makers.
lets see how these new dm500hd clones go, they have just started selling them on sites, me i am thinking of purchasing one myself
I just dont understand why peeps keep buying the cheap clones when theres decent genuine receivers out there for not masses more in cost :confused:
silverfox0786
04-01-11, 16:13
I just dont understand why peeps keep buying the cheap clones when theres decent genuine receivers out there for not masses more in cost :confused:
sorry boss thats something i would love to know the answer too aswell i can safly and happily say i dont any more own a clone box and so help me god never will
I just dont understand why peeps keep buying the cheap clones when theres decent genuine receivers out there for not masses more in cost :confused:
thats my thinking now
18months ago it was a different story, you couldn't buy a HD receiver for £180 (like the DM800S copies) hence why i got one back then
but for 170 u cant get a hd box for that open source linux
but for 170 u cant get a hd box for that open source linux
the Qbox Mini HD is probably the nearest one in terms of price i think now
silverfox0786
04-01-11, 16:32
qbox looks very promising
basilyoung
04-01-11, 16:45
There are reasons to be very gratefull to DMM, which has to come at a price, both now, and in the future, but the unit prices, do need reviseing
there are as posted, several very exciting units at all levals available to us now, regardless of all the politics, who dev,d this that or the other
but the bottom line is, surport from 3rd party image writers, plugin writers and so on, is what makes this hobby work
baz
but for 170 u cant get a hd box for that open source linux
So would stretching to a something like a genuine VU+ Solo really break your bank account? Doubt it.....at least your buying a genuine receiver with full manufacturers warranty.
So would stretching to a something like a genuine VU+ Solo really break your bank account? Doubt it.....at least your buying a genuine receiver with full manufacturers warranty.
this is my opinion entirely. yes i do agree that DMM need to sort out their prices as there are several very nice boxes on the market that do the same if not better job for less, but from my point of view a lot of the negativity levied towards DMM comes from people who buy a cheap clone expecting it to either be the real deal or to work the same as a real box.
sic yeh it would break the bank, struggling at the moment,hard times, and i think 265 pound for a single tuner, is alot, 95 pound more than what i can get a clone for,
sic yeh it would break the bank, struggling at the moment,hard times, and i think 265 pound for a single tuner, is alot, 95 pound more than what i can get a clone for,
thing is, you get what you pay for.
if you pay that little bit extra for say a solo from the site sponsor. you will have a forum based support structure and if i may be so bold, a rather impressive after sales support structure from the site sponsor. if you buy a dodgy clone from china where is the support ? not to mention that even if you do get support more often than not you'd have to ship it back to china and at your own expense too.
bassethound
04-01-11, 17:29
Trouble is if you support clones you are putting money in other peoples pockets rather than the original rights holder ie DM who probably spent a fortune on R&D and code writing
Trouble is if you support clones you are putting money in other peoples pockets rather than the original rights holder ie DM who probably spent a fortune on R&D and code writing
thats another thing i have very strong feelings about. after all companies like DMM spend tens of millions on constant R&D. the cloners on the other hand just rake in the cash.
my clone is from a respectable uk supplier and if anything goes wrong he will soon fix it, very good support,too, i know what you mean about originals, yeh i agree about what u pay for is what you get, but i only want it to work, nothing speciall thats it, not playing mkvs and xvids and all that, i have a media player that plays everything, i just want it to work, which is what i will get,it wont beat my vu+duo, but that is my master box, this other box is for when i go to bed to watch tv, and thats all
sic yeh it would break the bank, struggling at the moment,hard times, and i think 265 pound for a single tuner, is alot, 95 pound more than what i can get a clone for,
I suppose that was a little harsh, but you could always wait a week or two and save that bit extra ;)
lol sic i know what u mean, i would love a solo but 265 pound alot, i dont know, if i come into some money then yes, happy days
In regards your one to three comments about newbies.
As a newbie, i don't understand the hype about Dreamboxes.
In business the past is as they say "history".
Reputation has value as this attracts both old and new customers.
Having a fairly unique product also helps.
They had a strong customer base that was being eroded by cloners.
This had a twofold effect of losing sales and damaging their reliability record.
People often omitted to mention that it was a clone that had just failed etc.
Instead of concentrating on innovations and lower prices to defeat the pirates, they chose to spend the money on anti piracy measures.
This allowed other manufacturers to gain ground, and in some cases overtake them.
Like any purchase, i take the time to do as much research as possible.
The "peoples favourite" seemed to be the Dreambox.
Plenty of forums, and great support.
However, i became increasingly alarmed by the problems people were having.
I'm not even talking about getting plug-ins and extras working, i'm talking about the very basics of channel watching.
Even after filtering out the many clone failures, DMM didn't come out too well either.
I slowly got the impression that DMM where treating their own customers as beta testers.
If one model turned out to be duff, they just moved on to the "improved" version.
Even with my concerns, the fact remained that DMM was the only real choice.
I did look at the DM8000s, but it was way overkill for my footie watching needs.
I decided that the DM500HD was going to be my first box.
It was delayed and delayed, and i even wondered if it would come out at all.
This delay meant i had time to look around and do some more reading.
Then VU released the SOLO and DUO.
Looking at the SOLO and 500HD, there isn't much in it.
It was the DUO that really tipped the balance.
For not much more, i could have a dual tuner, full size internal HDD and a front display.
Although the features and price were attractive, they would be pointless unless they came with reliability.
It didn't take long to see the VU had built a very reliable box, and was starting to gain good support.
Forums like this add to attractiveness of the Vu boxes.
The Dreambox may be more flexible, it might have more support. But the VU box does what it is supposed to do.
It does it without fuss. I have not had a single issue/green screen.
I'm still on the last release of VIX 1.2 and i'm very reluctant to upgrade!
So you can imagine when somebody asks for recommendations on any forum what my response will be.
It's not a anti DMM stance, rather i find them hard to recommend because they are offering less for more money.
What you may come across is people not liking DMMs aggressiveness.
Their constant rants about clones drives people nuts.
When somebody stole some Dreamboxes, what did DMM do?
Offer a reward for any information?
Use the vast forums to appeal for help?
Offer a free replacement if anybody accidentally bought one, as long as they tell where they got it etc.
No, they threatened any body caught in possession with one with prosecution.
So overnight they frightened off any newbie (who wouldn't know what to look out for) who may have been considering a Dreambox too look elsewhere...DOH!
DMM
Some (v)good products
But
Some bad products
Bad prices
Bad P.R.
= Bad company?
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