CCcam legal/illegal

[prince786]

Just out of curiosity is CCcam on its own without any active lines legal to have on your set up box.
Thanks

[marty]

I'm sure its OK :p

[Rob van der Does]

Just out of curiosity is CCcam on its own without any active lines legal to have on your set up box.
Thanks
Our Dutch provider even has helped by adapting the firmware of the smartcard to allow (limited) sharing via CCcam.

[Larry-G]

CCcam and other softcams may not be illegal as such, they live in a very grey area and in the UK we have no other option but to use softcams if we want to use a offical sky card in any thing but a sky box. some of our european cousins on the mainland have a more liberal way of thinking, but in the UK sky have a monopoly over satellite based transmissions.

Basically rupert murdock has his hand so far up this and previous governments backsides that he can get away with and do pretty much as he likes in this area. in the same way that he was ordered to produce a NDS cam unit for sale and didnt bother.

ok so i went off topic a little but i felt the need to have a rant so i did.

[twol]

CCcam and other softcams may not be illegal as such, they live in a very grey area and in the UK we have no other option but to use softcams if we want to use a offical sky card in any thing but a sky box. some of our european cousins on the mainland have a more liberal way of thinking, but in the UK sky have a monopoly over satellite based transmissions.

Basically rupert murdock has his hand so far up this and previous governments backsides that he can get away with and do pretty much as he likes in this area. in the same way that he was ordered to produce a NDS cam unit for sale and didnt bother.

ok so i went off topic a little but i felt the need to have a rant so i did.
Yep, different from here in Germany, where they have to provide different cards (S02, V13 etc) depending on the customers receiver (usually not a Sky box) and even provide(at a cost) their own CAM for some receivers.

[Flyingpig]

Having a some legal background I can say that the softcams, software and 3rd party receivers are not illegal. As far as I am aware in the UK there has not been a single legal case banning the use of such software.

I can also point out that card sharing is not illegal in practice. What is illegal is selling services and profiting from items you are not permitted to sell, which infringes on copyright law and a few others as well.

Case 1 - A person has a legitimate subscription registered to his / her property. They use the third party software to share their very legitimate sub to another receiver in their home which is registered with the provider. There is no infringement on any law in this land, and anybody who says there is will need to point me in the direction of the case which has the law / statute behind it.

In case 1 - if the person with the legitimate sub shares it with themselves even at another property i.e. a 2nd home, where only they will access the service that is subscribed too will be hard pushed to be breaking the law.

However, if at any point you resell these services you are breaking lots of laws which carry severe penalties.

In the UK (suppose it goes for europe as well) I can almost certainly that there will never be a case of anyone being prosecuted when they are sharing with themselves or not for profit, and the reason being that if the providers lost the case that - which I think they would, that would set a precedent and it would be open season.

So in answer to the question, 3rd party software used with recievers is not illegal at all. If you think different point me in the direction of laws where people have been prosecuted who have not been selling a service they are not entitled too.

FP.

Edit - at worst it is breaking terms of service - which is civil law and not criminal.

[Rob van der Does]

Having a some legal background I can say that the softcams, software and 3rd party receivers are not illegal. As far as I am aware in the UK there has not been a single legal case banning the use of such software.

I can also point out that card sharing is not illegal in practice. What is illegal is selling services and profiting from items you are not permitted to sell, which infringes on copyright law and a few others as well
..........

So in answer to the question, 3rd party software used with receivers is not illegal at all. If you think different point me in the direction of laws where people have been prosecuted who have not been selling a service they are not entitled too.

And as I stated above: that's also the way our Dutch & Belgian providers look at things. They even supported the setup of this so called 'in-house sharing'. Hence you see free talking about that on Dutch forums.

[Larry-G]

In the UK (suppose it goes for europe as well) I can almost certainly that there will never be a case of anyone being prosecuted when they are sharing with themselves or not for profit, and the reason being that if the providers lost the case that - which I think they would, that would set a precedent and it would be open season.

So in answer to the question, 3rd party software used with recievers is not illegal at all. If you think different point me in the direction of laws where people have been prosecuted who have not been selling a service they are not entitled too.

FP.

Edit - at worst it is breaking terms of service - which is civil law and not criminal.

well i would disagree with that, it may not be illegal but in the case of sky uk who charge for "multi room" subs, you will find your sub cancelled imminently and your self on a lifetime black list if they ever discovered you sharing your card with other receivers in your own home.

[zappahey]

well i would disagree with that, it may not be illegal but in the case of sky uk who charge for "multi room" subs, you will find your sub cancelled imminently and your self on a lifetime black list if they ever discovered you sharing your card with other receivers in your own home.

It reads to me that you have actually just agreed with him. It's not illegal but it breaks the terms of service.

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[Rob van der Does]

And as I stated above: that's also the way our Dutch & Belgian providers look at things. They even supported the setup of this so called 'in-house sharing'. Hence you see free talking about that on Dutch forums.
Added to that: those providers do support the in-house-sharing in spite of the fact that they also sell multi-room cards.

[mickyblueys]

Interesting to hear that. again its us muppets in the UK who get shafted while our brothers on the continent are allowed. Typical UK law. Naff.

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[Rob van der Does]

Interesting to hear that. again its us muppets in the UK who get shafted while our brothers on the continent are allowed. Typical UK law. Naff.
I doubt it's UK law. Reading the above it's UK-provider.

[Larry-G]

I doubt it's UK law. Reading the above it's UK-provider.

Technically it is uk law as it comes under copywrite theft due to the softcam circumventing the protection algorithms of the card and im fairly certain the same would apply to all european countries if pushed.

Card sharing has always been a taboo subject that was tolerated by the service providers, this has now changed due to the massive amounts of users obtaining channels illegally without contributing any thing back the same thing hapened with uk cable.

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[Rob van der Does]

Technically it is uk law as it comes under copywrite theft due to the softcam circumventing the protection algorithms of the card and im fairly certain the same would apply to all european countries if pushed.
I don't believe a word of that. On what do you base that?

Related (indeed not about CCcam, but still): telesat also supports Linux-receivers (or better: clients using Linux receivers). See

http://www.telesat.be/client/communication.aspx?id=46

[Rob van der Does]

And do you really think our providers would support CCcam if that would be illegal?

[Larry-G]

I don't believe a word of that. On what do you base that?

Related (indeed not about CCcam, but still): telesat also supports Linux-receivers (or better: clients using Linux receivers). See

http://www.telesat.be/client/communication.aspx?id=46

Because in the eyes of the law its no different to circumventing the protection on say a DVD, as I said certain european providers seem to be turning a blind eye for the time being but that wont last forever. As soon as their bank ballances are being directly affected I guarantee they will crack down hard on such meaures of sharing subs inuding within the confines of your own home.

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[josh_g]

Interesting to hear that. again its us muppets in the UK who get shafted while our brothers on the continent are allowed. Typical UK law. Naff.

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I fully agree with you, Mr Murdoch holding the monopoly of UK satellite subscriptions and charging for multiroom and cost of extra box is ridiculous!! and helps these so called 'payservers' get rich!

i see no harm in 'cardsharing' and strongly believe ditching my Sly box was the best thing i ever did

[Larry-G]

And do you really think our providers would support CCcam if that would be illegal?

When it starts to affect their profits they will close this loophole.

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[Rob van der Does]

Because in the eyes of the law ....
So you're interpreting the eyes of the law in such a way that we are all doing illegal stuff?
Do you really have a solid enough background for such a standpoint?

[Rob van der Does]

When it starts to affect their profits they will close this loophole.
Yes, it does, as they sell less secondary/tertiary cards due to the support of CCcam.

[Flyingpig]

Technically it is uk law as it comes under copywrite theft due to the softcam circumventing the protection algorithms of the card and im fairly certain the same would apply to all european countries if pushed.

Card sharing has always been a taboo subject that was tolerated by the service providers, this has now changed due to the massive amounts of users obtaining channels illegally without contributing any thing back the same thing happened with uk cable.

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It is only copyright theft if you resell the service. If you have a legitimate sub, you are within your rights to watch the items on TV in your home. You can then share this 'legally' around you home as there is no law against it.

What makes a law is a piece of statue which is brough in by the government then given royal ascent. Laws can also be formed by case law and precendent. However, I am not aware (and I have trawled the legal books), and neither are a bunch of legal specialists whom I have consulted with of any precedent been set.

Being careful with precedent - it has to be found on an exact point. You will not find a single case of anyone successfully prosecuted in the UK or Europe for that matter for sharing a legitimate sub around their own home which they are registered to receive the said copyrighted material.

Just out of curiosity what would be the terms of prosecution be for $ly if they were to prosecute? It could not be copyrighted material , as you have a legit sub? It could not be theft as you are legally entitled to view the material?

It is without question, illegal to re-sell a service that you are not permitted to sell.

[Flyingpig]

And as I stated above: that's also the way our Dutch & Belgian providers look at things. They even supported the setup of this so called 'in-house sharing'. Hence you see free talking about that on Dutch forums.

That is good, and I think if anyone in the UK had enough money or the time, they could challenge the UK providers and I think they would be successful, as it is closed protocol system. If there was a few more main stream satellite providers in the UK it would have to be open protocol systems as it would be unrealistic to have 3 systems to view 3 different channels on 3 different platforms.

So we need more providers selling TV services on different formats and I dont think it would be long before we seen a change in law.